Integrated? When? Where?
Who said they are still part of the Iron Horde? Are you implying that because they behave as orcs, they are still the same villainous faction of back then?
Oh, now its about the ogres? The ones that in turn wanted to subjugate the rest of Draenor races?.
![:roll_eyes:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/roll_eyes.png?v=6" ":roll_eyes:")
Why?
Opinions.
edit: I don’t want to devolve this. Lets just leave it at a disagreement. To much opinion.
1.The Forsaken are… different. They don’t feel things like we do anymore. They’re… abominations
2.No one thought of them as war heroes. They’d been turned into mindless undead monstrosities. Whatever her beautiful sons’ final fate, they were lost to her, and the living world of humans spoke of such horrors only in whispers.
3.Individuals who struggled with the concept of a Forsaken as a “person”
4.There was an undercurrent of hostility, an unvoiced desire to punish the Forsaken simply for the act of having died and been reborn.
5.“You blaspheme what was once a good man,” he snapped. “You have stolen his form and parade him about, wearing him as if he were a suit of clothing. Your broken mouth is good for nothing save spewing filthy lies. The undead are unholy. Whatever priestly powers they have come from the shadows of the Light, not the Light itself. If there is anything left in you of that good, kindly man I loved so much, you capering piece of carnage, come to me, and I will blast him into merciful oblivion.
I mean…five alone seems pretty obvious.
EDIT: The fact that the book itself differentiates the ones that hate Sylvanas for what she has done, from the ones that hate Forsaken for what they are, should be enough proof about this.
EDIT 2:
Like you put above :
Redo and rewatch it if you seriously didn’t get it.
They subjugated the Orges and kill anyone of them which disagrees, you see her say they normally have to put down a couple every year/season (or whatever timeframe they use). They clearly haven’t changed and are doing exactly the same thing they claim are fighting against.
That should be very obvious…
Whatever.
The last quote is inappropriate since Turalyon has nothing to do with Stormwind.
Notice how the common denominator of these quotes is not that Stormwind hates the Forsaken merely for being Undead, which is what you claimed. In truth, Stormwind clearly doesn’t hate the Forsaken simply for being Undead, since they literally let Death Knights, Warlocks, and Demon Hunters walk freely in the streets.
Sylvanas herself is far from being innocent, since she called the Humans an “infestation” and effectively purged them from Lordaeron.
The problem Zarao is that you always point fingers at the Alliance, that’s all you can do. You never stop for a moment and think that maybe Sylvanas also brought that hate upon herself.
This is a sentence that described Stormwind and how they felt about undeath.
I’ll quote myself again:
And regarding this:
I said that i understand that personal bias defines how any character reacts. Not blaming the Alliance for anything.
In fact, i’ve repeatedly argued how their stance is understandable.
Same as i understand if Geyarah has her personal bias against a race that has destroyed her whole planet. Regardless of how involved the current object of her annoyance was in all that.
Its pretty easy to draw parallels between the Lightforged and the Lightbound. Parallels well beyond physical resemblance (which has been repeatedly been enough for plenty collectives to hate other factions).
Undead/Forsaken is the closest approximation we’ve had with current lore. We could draw similar parallels with the Frostwolves and the Old Horde, or the Nightborne and the Highborne.
Or even the Ebon Blade and the Scourge.
Because they are? Unless the truth is now also racism? Being raised into undeath changes people, you did the Horde war campaign, Zeilling almost hurt his family.
2 and 3 can be easily put to down to what I mentioned above.
This one I can give you, hating someone for being different is a human trait displayed in reality quite well. But I find it very irresponsible to claim this is a dominant attitude.
No, its not. Turalyon fought the Death Knights of the Old Horde, and now one, who looks exactly like them stands in front of him. This person is also his former mentor. What would you do, especially if you were a paladin?
No, it is not proof of this. Such individuals probably exist, but claiming that a nation with a lot of Lordaeron refugees, who has heard everything about Sylvanas’s deeds and suffered at her hand hates undead for the kicks is just…bleh.
I mean, that same Sylvanas slaughtered Lordaeron refugees as they tried to escape the kingdom.
Or do you deny that Stormwind has a lot of tangible reasons to hate the undead?
This is a sentence that described Stormwind and how they felt about undeath.
No, how do we know that that quote refers to the entirety of Stormwind and not just a minority?
Which brings me to the second problem of yours: You jump to conclusions.
“The narrator says that there was hostility growing in Stormwind, so that clearly means that the vast majority of Stormwind, government included, are the source of that hostility.”
I said that i understand that personal bias defines how any character reacts. Not blaming the Alliance for anything.
In fact, i’ve repeatedly argued how their stance is understandable.
Then admit that Sylvanas brought that upon herself as well with her actions. Or is it too hard to realize that Waifu Queen is not innocent?
Same as i understand if Geyarah has her personal bias against a race that has destroyed her whole planet. Regardless of how involved the current object of her annoyance was in all that.
Given how her idol tried to do the same 30 years ago, Geya’rah should open a history book and read the chapter about “Iron Horde Invasion”. The problem though is that the greenskin wannabe might not know how to read, since orcs are stupid.
Almost harming someone while in rage, isn’t inherent or tied to Undeath. Even by RL standards, its sadly quite common.
Abomination, not being considered a person, or unworthy of being considered heroes simply because they are undead, underlines some bias and prejudice against undeath itself.
It points at some negative qualities or psyche, that doesn’t necessarily have to do with actions themselves. They hated them for what they were, not for what they had done.
There were smiths, guards, historians,…people that had never lifted a finger against Stormwind, and still were hated simply for being undead.
Its a sentence used to describe how Stormwind population as a whole felt. And points at the animosity against undeath, as being something widely spread amongst Stormwind people.
I’d probably react the same.
The book differentiates the ones that hate undeath precisely because of what Sylvanas did, with the ones that simply hate it.
And i’ve, repeatedly, said that i understand both postures.
No. But given the book, it goes far beyond actual actions. People are prejudiced against it regardless of where it comes from.
Turalyon doesn’t hate Faol for what he did, he hates him because hates undeath.
Emma Felstone rather consider her sons dead, than acknowledge their current existance as Forsaken. And she knows that they had nothing to do with the attacks on Stormwind.
Just like there were children who did nothing wrong and were still annihilated in Blight because they were an “infestation” in the eyes of a Banshee.
How hard can it be to understand that both parties made mistakes?
I won’t deny that some in Stormwind gervently hate the Undead, but let’s not act like Sylvanas and her people deserve any sympathy.
Unfortunately, but being undead in the lore changes people. That’s how it is, they are prone to the darker spectrum of emotions.
Because some hated them simply for being undead. Some hated them for having suffered losses at undead hands.
Indeed, but is the source of this animosity the vague racism, or the tangible reason? I will go for the tangible reason here.
Agree to disagree. Either way, we agreed that both attitudes are present, arguing over which one is dominant is a matter of perspective and personal opinion, so I will leave it here.
Because its a sentence used to describe how the general feeling regarding Anduins proposal about the Gathering was.
What other conclusion is there to be had? The narrator says that there is an ongoing hatred towards undeath, regardless of actions themselves, and we are supposed to assume she is referring to the minority?
There is another quote, that says that for every 100 letter Anduin sent to the population, only 5 or 10 actually came back agreeing with him, or something like that.
Waifu Card?..
I’ve already said that i understand that people hate Sylvanas for what she did. But the book also shows that people have a personal bias against undeath regardless of their actions.
Just like Geyarah has with the Draenei.
Her role model was her father, that died at the hands of those Draenei, and her mother, that she had to leave behind barely fencing off the assault against her clan by those same Draenei.
Given these facts, i doubt she blames Grommash one bit about wanting to exterminate the Draenei and the outsiders. Given the first ones indeed turned against them during peace times, and the second brought the fel that ravaged the world and freed Gul’dan.
Won’t really tackle the side-RP, sorry.
just settle that war and reasoning breeds arguments on both sides. you can’t convince everybody of anything in the motivation of such scenarios.
i’d find it wierder if it was all 100% anyway.
edit: then again, that might make story forums a boring place to watch. ![:thinking:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/thinking.png?v=6" ":thinking:")
Thats the point of creating several sentient species and pitting them against each other as enemies: That at some point, writers have to give both sides tangible and valid grievances that makes them oppose the other side.
And this is often fanned by Blizzard themselves when they want to have a faction war story.
It would probably make a 2 faction game boring to play.
The Ogres choose their leader by power, if someone comes in and beats their leader they follow him. Simple as that.
The relationship between Ogres and Orcs is really not that complicated, Orcs were enslaved by Ogres in the past turned the tables and now controll the Ogres before they get to strong to controll.
Funny enough, Lightbound Draenei did the same thing with their shiny powers.
Tell me about it. Double standards at their best! Suddenly people are branding you the bad guy when you are playing by the rules of the world to make lesser races to something useful.
Funny enough, the word subjugate is derived from ‘subject’.
And wasn’t perceived with negative connotations in the old age, when rulers had to force their hand upon their underlings with strength displays to keep them in check.
Tribal/strength based societies were founded and thrived around concepts such as these.
For an undeveloped/savage planet such as Draenor, it’s still they way things go. The strong rule the weaker ones.
Being subject to the orc rule, wouldn’t necessarily mean they would mistreat them any more than any other orc clan would with people from other clans.
Unless those same ogres revolted.
But this wasn’t about having either side freeing themselves from the other. It was about who was on top as the predominant species.
And of course, even the most levelheaded and moderate orc would hit back hard at the remnants of an empire that enslaved orcs for entire generations, the second they step out of the new way of things.
Primitive societies are ruled in such ways. Even RL colonies were met with hard measures the second they tried to quit and leave the rule of certain nations.
Exactly. So you confirm that Orcs are tyrants.
So are the AU Draenei. Shots fired.
Who exactly did Draenei “subjugate”?