Geya'rah - Involve her in the future story

Lore Story
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Neither do orcs though. They are beasts with the brain of a donkey and the ethics of a crazed boar.

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As your neighbourhood Lightb-I mean Lightforged - I must ask…what exactly was so terrible about the Lightbound?

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Allow me to categorize properly. For instance, we argue about the definition of the word “subjugation”. Latin, etc, bla bla. But did you know that there is a specific ritual called “passing under the yoke”, which is a battlefield humiliation thing?

The defeated soldiers were forced to pass under a “yoke” formed by two spears with a third one over them. It happened to the Romans, Romans did it to others, this is the ultimate humiliation within a warrior culture, which was sometimes followed by execution.

You see, when one has such things in one’s head, slippery arguing about certain definitions and their meanings (if you even believe Blizzard is nuanced enough to care) loses most of its charm.

Linguistic arguments are also crap.

Now, back to the quest. You can see that the orcs kept their lands, infrastructure and certain elements of their hierarchical structure. Some tyrannies allowed all of the aforementioned.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Geya’rah references that every time an Ogre leader which does not suit the Orc rises, he is put down.

Apparently, the Ogres are only allowed to function within the Orc’s interests, so eh. Further more, the ogres did not attack the Orcs.

The quotes are simple:

We subdued the ogre clans long ago. But every so often, one of their bravest–and stupidest–stirs the embers of rebellion. Today is such a day.

And the subsequent dialogue:

Overlord Geya’rah says: What is the meaning of this uprising, Kor’gall? You know we must stand together–now more than ever.

Kor’gall, Greatson of Kor’gall says: You cannot protect your own people, daughter of wolves. Why would we follow you?

Overlord Geya’rah says: Silence! If you will not stand down, I will put you down myself.

This is all before Kor’gall is revealed to be in cahoots with the Lightforged. Did the ogres attack? No.

Arguing semantics over these quotes is just, bleh. Reaching, to be fair.

Gronn and gronlings most certainly are not animals. You know this as well as I do. So, here I call out your bias. Sorry.

I don’t see it that way, sorry. The Draenei accuses the orcs of doing it. The orcs say “no,u”. Only thing you see is a dying world. There is no definitive proof.

You can offer me theories, but based on what? And no, not every source and indicator shows this. You barely have a source.

I remember a certain orc warchief enslaving certain elements. That orc warchief was the son of Grommash in our universe.

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Both believe they are absolutely right. I think that any good story about war has both sides believe they are in the right, for better or worse. (Insert generic BfA criticism here) And even then, if you want to see Geya’rah as a hyppocrite that’s your fight. I just pray that her views and code of honor are afforded more consistency than some other Orc characters.

We(the Horde) simply happen to see the Mag’har point of view of the situation and the hero of the Horde has seen Xe’ra attempting to bind Illidan (there are obvious paralels including recycled dialogue :rofl: ).

A document you loot from one of the Dreanei is Yrel blabbering about how “The Light Mother”(Xe’ra) has shown her visions of the Army of the Light.

Returning to the topic of the thread i would love to see her at least make a cameo in the war campaign, where she bashes in some lightforged skuls, while saying some oneliner.

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That’s where BFA failed, alas. I don’t really wanna get into Geya’rah, I already said that I see her more as Garrosh in a female package (complete with missing daddy). And she’s declaring war on the other faction which saved Draenor, not only the draenei. This is unwise.

I won’t even get into the “we hate the light” and blood elves argument. The Blood elves are literally leeching light from the Sunwell.

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This exchange alones proves that Geyarah considered ogres her equals and allies. Not as some subjects under her “yoke”.
Both acknowledge each other as equals. Kor’gall even references Geyarah as protecting ogres.

Chronicles Vol. 2 page 19.

Some of the magnaron devolved into half-flesh, half-stone giants called gronn. These massive predators stalked the edges of the wilds, terrorizing lesser life-forms and devouring anything they could find.

What do you consider as “people”? Descriptions point at them being equal to our RL primates. At best.

That the desiccated planet came par on the growing influence of the Lightbound. And we know thanks to this:

How a Light-consumed planet looks like. Something that acutely resembles what Draenor was apparently turning into.

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I am sorry, when my equal wants to go his own way, I don’t bash his head in with a mace. That’s not equality.

Geya’rah addresses him as if he is her subject.

You want to play the quote game too? I can find you quotes where Orcs are called predators, does this mean they are animals? Anyone sentient and capable of communication in form of speech (Gruul making a deal with Khadgar) can not be considered an animal.

Correct me if I am wrong, but this is a vision of the void. The Void is not who I would call to court as my witness. Also, I have not seen “people trapped in crystals, unable to die” on Draenor.

What exact quote are you referencing?

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I’ve speculated about the Sunwell being rid of the light this xpac or whenever we see the light heel turn, for a while now, but that’s just it speculations.

More so from the lack of spotlight than anything. Could have put emphasis on it, but then they couldn’t forcefully rehash the Garrosh narrative.

Lastly i actually like Garrosh, except his treatment of allies.

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You will forgive me, I am a paladin main. “Hah, the light is actually evil” is a butt-pull I can not comprehend. And they think its a genius twist.

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So Thoradin NEVER “subjugated” any other human tribe, despite you having claimed so?

If you have to “subjugate” someone, you are a tyrant towards that someone.

No. To Alexandros’ comparison.

Yes. They had to be “subjugated”.

But Forsaken are justified in murdering defending Gilneans! I can’t… You will defend everything that is red to your the last, won’t you?

So speculations? This proves nothing. Iceni had their own settlements and guards and whatever and they were still tyranized to oblivion by Romans.

Yes. They were “subjugated”. This is the proof. Your evidence is grasping at definitions.

I seriously can’t wait. Give ma a RL example!

Why are you so hell bent of defending EVERY SINGLE case of Horde doing ANYTHING remotely “bad”?

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She threatens him to stand down and stop the revolution. Kor’gal wasn’t going his way, he was going against the orcs.

Several other paragraphs of the book point at gronn as being primal beings and predators to the lesser forms that devolved from Grond.
An intelligent gorilla, is still a gorilla. Regardless if he knows sign language or a few words.

This part. When just before Orelis lands, the naaru encapsules several fleeing orcs in crystal prisons.

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And where is it shown he was going against the orcs in that particular moment? She goes to his settlement, not vice versa.

Find me a gorilla capable of speaking like a human then. Once again, I call bias. I can understand your angle, seeing that Gronn are hardly the most reasonable or communicative of individuals, but reducing them to animals is going too far. They were even worshiped as gods, apparently.

My youtube quality might suck, but I am unsure these are crystals. Either way, I do not dispute that it is highly likely that the draenei and the powers behind them are to blame.

Much more likely then the orcs doing it, so I have no problem conceding this point, although I will keep a reserve.

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Chronicles Vol 1.
Led by Warlord Thoradin, the tribe embarked on a campaign to bring its rivals under a single banner, whether by force or diplomacy.
In a span of just six years, the warlord brought the other tribes to heel.

And goes ahead to described how he pitted tribes against each other, made them allies through marriages, and controlled others by force.

“Bring to heel”?..

How is that any different from what Orcs did with ogres?

You are again using two unrelated words, which may end up being tied with each other on some occassions but not always. The dictionary leaves no doubt regarding what ‘Subjugate’ means.
And the definition is a lot more aseptic than the one you are giving it.

What???

Contrary to what you bring as “proof” that seems to be a single word that the official dictionary simply defines as:

to bring under complete control or subjection; conquer; master.

And that has as synonym “Conquer”…

I think that all the indicators and quotes i’ve shown so far give a ampler look at what their relation truly was.

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I don’t recall orcs making allies through marriage. And I also remember this quote:

“On rare occasions, the canny warlord was forced to outright conquer some of the more belligerent tribes”

I mean, this shows violence was really the last resort for Thoradin. Violence is kinda always the first resort for Orcs.

I also remember Thoradin offering peace and equality, service as generals within a nation.

I remember Grommash bragging about killing ogres, in clear contrast…

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As I said at the beginning, I didn’t read Chronicles :slight_smile:

Then again, that proves that Orcs are mentally thousands of years behind humanity.

…so they are related.

That’s the problem. “Definitions!”, “definitions!”, “definitions!”. You’re always trying to destroy every claim with your precious dictionary definitions. You’ re prepared to argue with absolutely everything if it is in defense of the Horde.

That’s what you said the other time. Forsaken are right in killing Gilneans who were defending themselves.

Again, dictionary in defence of the Horde. And your opinions are obviously more important than anybody else’s.

You almost treaded on defending Roman conquests with your precious definitions… The world isn’t only about cold dictionaries and their definitions. But you will deploy anything to protect team red.

Anyway, have it your way. I am done arguing about stupid video game.

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And? I just pointed out that Thoradin indeed followed a similar mindset.

Yes, just like “Despotic Warlord”, or “Scheming Villain”. But that doesn’t mean every Warlord is despotic, nor every Villain is scheming.

Can’t recall what i said, but i think the term was probably ‘understandable’. But what does any of this have to do with the argument at hand?

Some of you seem rather fixated on bringing forth past and unrelated arguments in a rather random fashion.
Should i start taking note of previous discussions whenever any of you post? Its rather tiring constantly having to waddle past ad hominems.

Defending? I’ve repeatedly said that i understand those sort of mindsets. Yes, including the Romans.
Including Thoradin, and including Orcs. Although in these last cases, i do understand they are fictional character/races (have to point this out before i’m bombarded with some “You are fine with RL Genocide!!” kind of argument…)

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Nothing, discussion over.

This debate is escalating beyond any logical borders.

Oh, I didn’t mean anything, obviously.

Ok.

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In a way she’s even more than Thrall’s sister; she’s practically his AU counterpart. But with balls. I like her a lot.

Would absolutely love to see her get much more involved.

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She’s pretty dull. I feel her being Thrall’s AU self is more a disservice to her character than a benefit.

I wanna see more Usha, she has great potential as an Orc character.

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If you cant recognise decent characters on the horde because of your alliance bias thats just sad.