Half-baked pig with lipstick


#21

There is nothing peaceful about the premise. The premise is “the worst evil first, after that, we’ll see”. And it is supposed to lead to conflict sooner or later. Just not the usual “the world will end, if we don’t exterminate them all now” kind of conflict.

Yes. And it seemed there were no enemies left that were more clearly evil. So I really don’t see the situation as comparible. The long-term goal would still be total domination and cultural homogenity. That’s what makes them the enemy faction. But in the short term the goal of getting rid of evil and prevalent death, void and fel magics that plague Azeroth makes them the enemy of our enemies first.

No one has to be fooled by it. They just have to be - dare I say it? - pragmatic about it. And not even all of them, just a relevant majority.

Edit:
And about fanatics being unreasonable in nature… that may be true for our world, where no god was nice enough to make itself scientifically provable, or to send its angel-equivalents again where we can all see it. But in WoW? The Light is real, and it can bring enforced harmony that does seem to feel well enough. Being willing to go for that isn’t necessarily unreasonable. It just prioritizes contentment over freedom.


(Zarao) #22

Going from “Everyone that thinks otherwise must be converted or die” to “Well, I can ally with them (including Fel guys and those I just tried to exterminate/convert) to deal with some other guy”, I’d say it has some moderating adjustment regarding the initial mindset. Even if marginally.

And even if it were to happen, realistically, would a radical culture such as the Maghar (and by extension, the Horde) be willing to give them any credit? “Fool me once…” and all that stuff.

Wouldn’t be the first time a significant event was handwaved in order to accept some plot contention. It’s possible.
But, personally, wouldn’t like it.
The Maghar specially, had to mimic the Draenei on their escape from Argus.
I’d say that for them it’d be equatable to asking Velen to ally with Archimonde or KJ.

Being fair, when I wrote that I was kind of thinking more on an ingame example: the Scarlet Crusade.
Those weren’t reasonable at all, even when we declared our open intention to fight both Arthas and the Scourge.


#23

Well, I say there is none, you say there is a marginal one… in both cases it’s not character braking, so we can drop it.

The Mag’har weren’t fooled once, though.

Indeed. Which could be explored, when the Mag’har are at the forefront of trying to show everyone that those guys are super bad and either failing or starting the conflict.

Or would you rather have them throw a tantrum and have them refuse to fight the shadow monsters, as long as the Lightbound fight the same enemy, and the Mag’har’s allies refuse to attack them?
The Mag’har can’t really do much on their own. When Saurfang, Baine, Anduin and Tyrande talk it out and come to the conclusion to be wary, but to concentrate on the void, the Mag’har raging in the background won’t really change a thing. The Mag’har could give the Lightbound a second front, of course, but they would have to do that alone, would probably be deafeated (again), and would just annoy everyone else by weakening the world in their struggle against the worse baddies.

Indeed, and that’s what I would explicitly like to avoid. Not some well-meaning people twisted by demonic intervention to a carricature of themselves, but an actual attempt to make the Lightbound position incompatible with our values, while still being actually well-meaning. They strife for an utopia that seems perfectly reachable. But on the way sacrifices have to be made. We fight them not because their vision is so clearly bad, but because they try to force their vision on us.

So… kind of what Alliance vs. Horde could have been.


(Zarao) #24

Weren’t they? At the end of WoD it seemed that the whole point was having the Maghar getting convinced to discard Garrosh drivel about the Draenei being the bad guys, and join forces to defeat Archimonde and the Legion.

And then, with the Lightbound, kind of going back to square one.

I would expect the rest of the Horde to hear them out and give their testimony the weight it’s due.
After all, they are indeed refugees from another dimension, commanded by the daughter of a known and respect guy like Durotan, and also have as witness a guy like Eitrigg.

The ingredients are already in place for the Maghar to not be considered as some deranged drama queens.

Best case scenario, I would expect the Horde to have an approach of wariness.
If they were reasonable, and we were to expect a logical response, in order for the Lightbound to have any credibility they’d probably have to start with a token gesture of good faith towards the Horde.
Which, given your scenario, would seem pretty OOC for them.
But it’s my opinion.

But isn’t that role already covered by the Lightforged? At least from the Hordes point of view.

Must be me, but I always had the impression that the Lightbound were being presented as a way of showing an extreme radicalisation of those values. The typical “Pureblood” trope, that puts everyone into two very defined boxes about “My people” (Allies), and “The rest” (Kill or Convert).

Regarding the traits you mentioned, those are traits usually reserved for playable races alone.

The Lightbound seemed to be presented, at least to me, as an alternative mindset not even the Lightforged would find agreeable.

I think that the scenario you mentioned can be applied to the Lightforged as is. But, I guess that would only work as a Horde-only antagonist.
And I assume you want to give it to both factions.


(Leíá) #25

Well the Lightbound seem to be the counter opposite to what the Orcs did, on the real Draenor, when they did take the fel.

I think that’s the crux on what’s going on, here.


(Zarao) #26

That’s the most probable reason.

I do like to think that they are the result of lacking a moderating figure that guides them in the right way. Some kind of Velen.

Maybe it’s just me, but I always liked to think that the Draenei are a race that tends towards the extremes if not kept in check by a more reasonable leader.
Like, how they went full on destruction and annihilation when Velen died in WoD. To the point they founded the Sargerei and went head first into the Legion knowing full well what it meant/asked of them.


(Leíá) #27

I think the Lightbound are cool, because it does give us another insight into just how fanatical they can become without true guidance.
It also sheds more light, no pun intended, on just how grey the Naaru can be as well, which is absolutely counter-opposite to what we remember, if we think back to the days of TBC.


#28

35 years later. That’s quite some time. So yes, I say we have no reason at all to think they were fooled. The draenei just changed over time. Probably after the arrival of a new Naaru, likely Xe’ra.

Well, that doesn’t conflict with the scenario. The player factions were also always wary when working together.

And coming to the rescue against the forces of evil wouldn’t count? And I certainly don’t see why that would be OOC for Yrel. Indeed, we know that she tried voluntary conversion first in Draenor, and force second. So why would we be surprised if it is the same in Azeroth?

…How? The only thing the Lightforged have ever done against the Horde is standing iwith the Alliance. Their identity as Lightforged played no role whatsoever, except possibly for the Mag’har, if they are all as generalizing as Geyarah.

That’s the big one. I don’t want it just for the Horde, yes

And it would stay that way. They just wouldn’t be totally stupid about it and they have no reason to rush things. We only saw one side of the story in Draenor, and missed decades of buildup. Thinking we know Yrel’s new modus operandi already, because we saw her being willing to finish it with force does seem premature to me. It wouldn’t be a retcon to make this story have another side.

It would be rather fitting, actually, considering that we know Geyarah to be quite hateful and thus biased towards Lightusers in general. Certainly not without reason, but she wouldn’t be the one I would ask for a fair accounting of events. The Lightbound can be bad without being crazy, and that doesn’t have to contradict the story.

That’s exactly what I find objectionable and what I would like to see changed. NPCs don’t have to be simple, and they can be much, much more interesting than they have been in WoW up till now.

Yes. They are willing to force people to convert to their ways. The Lightforged themselves haven’t shown these proclivites, and Xe’ra is gone. That’s why it wouldn’t be a problem that in this scenario they would have to oppose the Lightbound as well. Though it should probably come up.


(system) closed #29

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