nah I just want to see the classic player doing M20 
wasnt referring to you
Ah, sure - if they want to try one in a Tuesday (end of reset), but yeah the fact remains that minimum gear should exist however - i.e. not getting killed by base cleave or aoe that happens. As I am not offering a boost here.
Biggest fix would be if the Blizzard would look at the underperforming classes/specs and buff them up or make some changes to them so that they would work better for the content… The balance between the healers needs to be better.
yeah I agree you need to be nerfed. 
I think the timer should stay, its part of the challenge. I probably could do +15’s if there was no timer, but me and my friends arent good enough to beat the timers on +12-13 so we have to keep trying and get better before we can get to the higher keys. I wouldnt mind though if key stayed at same lvl if u didnt time it, would give u opportunity to practice it more.
And by nerf you mean what 
?
I hope how you don’t mean on my spec because well I would have to /slap you, just look how the holy priests are doing currently when it comes to the rankings.
I didnt mean a class or a priest, i meant you 
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Ah well that 
, now I know what you meant 
, you know me well enough 
.
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I agree that a lot of players would be doing way higher keys, but i disagree that the top would.
I think you really underestimate just how hard M+ scales.
The top players are already having trouble living around 23 Tyrannical bosses, which has a multiplier of 640%, at 30 you have a multiplier that is more than twice as big with 1342%, meaning everything hits for more than twice as much.
For reference spit gold in KR is gonna do around 476.6k every 3 sec on a +30 fortified, and even more on tyrannical, before resistances, i don’t think any class can survive that, especially when you take into account that boss fights are gonna be much longer aswell since they have more than twice the health.
Time is the difficulty for the vast majority of players, but the pros are right at the limit of both what is timeable and what is survivable, and even with infinite time, they won’t push much further, especially not to a 30, if i were to venture a guess, i would say for all dungeons on fortified, they won’t get past 27, but that is all speculation.
What M+(and raids and pvp)) need is their own gear sets/type.
Like WoD pvp gear,where scales up in content its meant for and has its own bonuses active but other bonuses dont work in there(so pvp or raid sets wouldnt work in M+)
Trinkets still would work but theyd be lower ilvl outside it(like aM+15 trinket is now like 450 ilvl inside but would be 425 or so outside,stil good/usable but lot weaker)
Then it actully becomes a alternative to raiding/pvp(which still need vendors with gear back for).
And isnt needded if wanna raid/pvp casue ap/legiondaries/azerite/certain gear etc. Or dont have to do raid for tier sets/special raid drop(like azshara staff) to be able to compete on M+
Then all M+/raids and PvP are seperate progession paths and stops needing to do it if just wanna raid/pvp or having to raid/pvp if wanna do M+.
It is not cheating at all, but it rewards a different skill set, that the community at large don’t consider being skill, and me neither.
CC everything and pull slowly 1 mob at a time, requires much less skill than actually doing good sized pulls, pumping a lot of damage, with everyone doing all the mechanics of the pack at once, and the timer is there so that you don’t snail through, but actually need to show some mechanical skill.
Going for CC everything was fine gameplay 15 years ago, nowadays we have realized that 0 skill is needed to do that.
edit: oh and the cheating thing he was reffering to was that it would be cheating or unfair to give a keystone upgrade to someone who ignored the timer compared to someone who actually did the challenge that was set.
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Hence why I said tyranical would be the only real “stopper” because it’d one shot people at some point.
if boss one shots you on 24 tyranical, that means it wont one shot you on 24 none-tyranical.
say freehold 25 first boss one shots on tyranical, and one shots on 26 none tyranical.
you could go there with 3 ranged dd, 1 healer, 1 tank, everyone’d dodge gunshot but tank, you could cr/use externals on tank and down the boss. etc etc
timer’s what makes M+ challanging
timer’s also the reason why rogue is so popular regardless of damage it does.
Well clearly you are being challenged since you’re not making the timer, but maybe not challenged in the way you want?
To me people who say this are people who have no clue on how to optimize dps or do anything to get fast through dungeons and just want to slowly walk through a dungeon and just tough it out without showing any sort of skill, and only showing endurance.
But i am curious, what exactly is the reason why you’re having trouble? lack of dps, constant wiping or something else?
That’s faulty logic or poor wording. If you meant if it oneshots you with an overkill less than 15% on tyrannical, then it won’t kill you on the same level fortified, then that would be true.
That could be true for this specific statement, a first boss shot (first phase) on 25 tyrannical does 343k ish, which could be a one shot, but it would only do 332k on 26 non tyrannical, but as a general statement this is not correct as for his P2 shot will one shot on both (632k and 612k respectively, though this is without resistance but i hope you get the point).
Which is exactly why i did not use this example since it is common knowledge that all his abilities are dodgeable, however eudora powder shot (might actually be LoS’able) or KR spit gold are undodgeable, what do you do then? you don’t have defensives and externals enough for fights that are gonna take maybe 30%-40% longer.
So sure some bosses can be done no matter how high you go, but there are also bosses that certainly will outscale everyone with no counterplay, which is why i will stand by what i said.
I do not disagree that the timer is what makes M+ challenging, what i am saying is that you are horribly wrong in saying that even with infinite time, top players will push much much higher, even to the extent of doing “+30 easily”, cause it is just not possible as it stands right now, unless you find a way to completely ignore so many key mechanics which we have not discovered how to (yet).
^This. It’s like the people that claim Classic is harder because of mana management lmao.
He wants to join the big boys of +20 without the afford.
It ALWAYS boils down to: GID GUD. Classic players only like things as mana management cause they’re bad at everything else. And I don’t mean to offend anyone here but I really do see Classic players as just not being very good in retail, not always.
exactly hence why I said some things would be pushable reaaaaaaaaaaally high, and some not.
Im almost sure AD would go pretty high, same for motherlode etc.
you get the point.
some bosses isnt a problem, since if you cant do 1, you cant complete the dungeon.
some dungeons is what the problem is.
30 was just a word, pick 27 or 33, and stop chasing me over my words when I clearly stated ITS FOR AN EXAMPLE. I didnt do maths, just threw in a random number to make a point.
I played classic with friend, we got to MC, all he did for some bosses was move(sometimes not) and use frost bolt 
leveling was fun and enjoyable, but it really isnt hard, slow and dull yes, RPG feeling yes, but its not hard.
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Yee same with my 140 and 50,. The point imo is, I only don’t make 15’s now because of timer and if that was gone what is stopping me from starting on 18’s.
yeah I mean it was about making a point, not doing math in a math class.
but since some people really like to be specific, there we go, if there was no time I’d finish and upgrade my 21 FH, which we overtimed by 3-4 minutes. hence I would have a higher score and would technically be what I said “pushing higher than now”
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I am not one for defending classic, but mana management is a real skill tbh, but mostly among healers, there isn’t mana management as dps, cause you blow all your mana, at least as mage, then evo and then do it again and wand while waiting to get mana back, that is not hard, but actual mana management is a skill.
I don’t honestly think so. I think he really just wants a stress free environment where you can take your time. It is not my cup of tea personally, but i don’t think they wanna be compared to those doing it on time, i think they just wanna take their time and try, and i do not think it shouldn’t be in the game, but i am strongly against removing the timer and if it was a mode, it should be strictly seperated from M+.