What benefits did it bring the Non-Forsaken races, though?
Sorry, I thought Rokhan was the one who brought the Zandalari in, while Liadrin made sure the Nightborne joined the Horde. I hardly see any of Sylvanas influence in here, to be fair.
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Immagine if Thrall comes to horde and looks at all those Sylvanas fanatics, blight worshipers and he is like that…
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Too bad they aren’t. Doy.
Only she sent rogues to kill him so… ya no sylva bad, as in evil her actions are something out of the old horde.
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I wouldn’t say evil, but reckless and negligent. Blighting Horde soldiers and raising them as undead at the battle of the Undercity wasn’t beneficial. Nor was torching Teldrassil… the whole reason for the war was shaky at best.
I will believe she had a hidden agenda, but you can’t claim she’s is helping the Horde. She’s helping herself, as she has always done. She can’t differentiate between what’s best for her and for her people, as she thinks it’s the same thing. As from the novel Before the Storm, she is wrong in that.
The Alliance with the Zandalari was not built by her, but by the player.
Nightborn were brought in by the Player and Blood Elves.
She doesn’t oppress the living, but has no problem with killing an raising them. The living are assets to her, nothing more, her disdain for them has been made clear enough during several in game sources.
Horde is not losing anything. There can be no winner, nor a loser. Saurfang is not a traitor, but a whiny rebel who puts honour before practice. He should have killed Malfurion when he had the chance. He would not make a good Warchief, though.
Baine is also not a traitor, but the only one who is standing for what he and his people believe in… whatever you may think of it, he did that at least. He wasn’t afraid to follow what he thought was right. I don’t necessarily agree with what he has done, but he has acting in the best interest of his people.
That both went against the Warchief is treason only in the eyes of those who support Sylvanas blindly… most of which are bloodelf players for some reason.
No, she’s neither. She completely disregards the needs and complaints of the other races, and threatens them if they do not follow her. This is not how you lead, this is how you cause rebellion among your followers.
I don’t think she is evil. I think that as an undead with no emotional attachment to anything - and with an unknown force in play that wanted her there, she’s just being who she is: an animated corpse obsessed with not going to hell.
She is pragmatic first and foremost, regardless of the costs (which is losing her the support) but cares nothing for the Horde. It’s a tool towards her goal, whatever that may be.
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I’m gonna say Sylvanas is losing the war because all her plans are countered by the Alliance, up to the point her own allies start betraying her because they’ve lost faith in her ability to win the war in any sane fashion. Saurfang didn’t sink the Zandalari navy, Baine didn’t kill Rastakhan, Lor’themar didn’t destroy the Undercity.
The dissenters amongst the Horde are pretty much entirely because of Sylvanas’s actions. Were it not for the confines of the game, most of the druids, shamans and tauren would have probably left the Horde entirely after Teldrassil.
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Don’t forget the Horde Paladins! Liadrin is such a meme.
Because Vol’jin did nothing as a warchief. He was so insignificant that we could have deleted the Horde from WoD and it wouldn’t have made a difference. Hell it would have made more sense in some cases.
And before that? He wasn’t much either. He’s known for REALLY not liking Garrosh even before he had a reason not to like him and for going sniveling to the Alliance to fix the Horde.
His only highlight since becoming Warchief was to die and pass on the mantle to Sylvanas who, at least, DID SOMETHING!
To be fair, compared to the competition, doing nothing would actually put you higher on the warchief tally, being that you are not in the negative.
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Let’s be honest you cannot say he made a bad Warchief when he was only Warchief in an expansion NOT EVEN SET ON AZEROTH.
He was killed off to make room for a fan fav who could convincingly start a war. Vol’jin was level headed, Horde focused and part of the original races. He wouldn’t have started a war blindly, burned the tree and made this mess possible.
Just doing SOMETHING doesn’t mean doing BETTER, if what your doing is causing pointless trouble.
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Yeah I was about to add that it’s kinda unfair to judge him when he wasn’t given any chance to actually prove himself.
The only things we can judge from WoD was:
- He sent his best to quickly deal with problem (PC and other high ranked heroes)
- Once portals were opened he was ready to send extra support and supplies
- When he finally arrived his biggest concern was to end campaign as quickly as possible yet he was insisting on doing everything to lose as little people as possible.
- He sought advise of people that actually lived there and had some knoweldge about the area and the world, so Durotan was very impressed that instead of Charging he was first seeking council.
This is what responsible leader does.
- Gather intel first to properly plan ahead
- always picks option that costs as little casulties as possible
What Sylvanas did in this expansion?
Started all the possible conflicts and escalated it to the hopeless levels to the point Horde can’t keep up with all that crap and is now losing at every front.
She sent soldiers on sure death, she didn’t even warned that that Blight is about to be deployed or even gave them any protection. Who cares if Horde is dying when Alliance is dying too right?
And exact same thing happens in 8.2 she sends everything she has left just to lure Alliance out to sure death. Who cares if Horde dies so long as we have a score with Alliance again, right?
I know that you have to lose soldiers in war, nobody won a war without loosing troops as far as I am aware. There are always some casulties, but my goodness it feels like she purposely sends Horde on death over and over again. What a psycho witch.
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Take notes! The measure of a “good” Warchief is whether the Alliance has a problem with him or not lol.
And people still wonder why Sylvannas wants to wipe out the Arrogant Hypocrites that are Alliance…
Lets remind here that the one you consider your best High King, Varian Wrynn of course, was the best because didnt put up with sht and gave a clear message of “I will *** you up if you dare start a War” which is why even Sylvannas respected him.
So there is nothing wrong with a powerful leader who doesnt put up with sht, namely, Sylvannas
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I mean, that is not what what they said. Neither faction had a problem with him. You ingored that part, just to make a series of dumb jabs at the Alliance.
No one is wondering why that is, and it is definetly not because “the measure of a good warchief is whether the Alliance has a problem with them”, which is not a thing. It is just something you made up. She wants to wipe out the Alliance because she is a racist, genocidal fascist.
And see where that got him, and the Alliance.
If that is the case, why has half the Horde turned on her in 8.2, something the Alliance nevr did to Varian? Do you not think there are more components to leadership, and just checking one bar does not excuse failure in all other areas? Her own messae of “I will *** you up if you dare start a War” by Burning Teldrassil failed, so she cannot even do that properly. Donald Trump is a guy who “doesnt put up with sht”. Hitler was a leader who “doesnt put up with sht”. Stalin was a leader who “doesnt put up with sht”. They are not considered particularily good leaders.
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That is something you made up and only your opinion. She has no racism towards the Horde
So, no faction has any issue is good? Cause last I checked it wasnt world of peacecraft
Varian died a Heroic Death defending Azeroth. If you dont see it as an Alliance player, damn…
He openly disagreed with nelfs about Worgen.
Openly rebuked the Worgen about Joining the Alliance.
Murdered his way through Ironforge with the SI:7 when Moira attempted a coup, killing everyone between him and his son, and would have killed Moira too if it wasnt for Anduin.
Spanked Jaina for the Purge of Dalaran cause, it was wrong! And messed up his negotiations with Blood elves
So if you actually count, he came at odds with almost all Alliance leaders! They just wouldnt dare challenge him!
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I never said “racism against the Horde”, I said racism. You know, like destroying the home of an entire race and killing unnumbered civilians because they chose the wrong faction.
Well yes. No one having a problem with your leader. Here is the thing. No one wants war. The only reason the Horde started the war was because Sylvanas falsely promised them she would secure peace. Leaders who prevent WARs, and win them when necesarry, are good leaders, meaning Sylvanas does not fall into the category.
And for what? For Gilneas to remain plagued? For Sylvanas to wage war with no limits? For Teldrassil to be ruined. Varian should have used his victory to cripple the Horde beyond thir capability to wage war again. He failed the Alliance.
That was before his victory in Siege of Orgrimmar, and he accepted the worgen into the Alliance. Besides, it is irrelevant because the topic was people turning on him not him rejecting or accepting new Alliance member. You were so esperate for a counter argument you ignored this obvious difference.
No, he did not murder anyone. Moira seized a sovereign city, against the will of the people living there. This was an act of war. She was not part of the Alliance. Besides, it this not the exact thing you falsely praised Sylvanas for doing? Taking action, and showing enemied what happens when they threaten your people?
This never happened.
No, Jaina did this.
“Three” is almost all? May I remind you that by the time he had his disagreements with Genn, he was not part of the Alliance, and they made amends, Moira was not part of the Alliance, and they made amends, Jaina joined the Alliance and Kirin Tor after the Purge, meaning she was not an Alliance leader at the time either, and they barely even had a disagreement.
Not because he was imposing. Genn was a refugee without a home. Moira had an axe to her neck, and Jaina has no reason to.
Besides that none of these are Alliance leaders turning on Varian.
So far, Sylvanas has failed to accomendate other Horde leaders and keep them at her side, while also failing to negotiate them back in. Coupled with the fact that she lainly sucks at warfare, it makes her a terrible warchief all around.
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LoL!
Thats right he “liberated” Ironforge! Khaleesi would be proud.
Cause SI:7 sneaking in an enemy city are known for their gente touch and not for the daggers in the back lol
Just google search : Varian si7 ironforge and have a look at the official art with corspes on his feet about he didnt murder anybody lol
You present what I said as ridiculous, but you provide no arguments, only ignorant sarcasm. You also seem ignorant of what “murder” means. Murder is killing someone with malicious intent. The attack on Ironforge was done to liberate the people from a foreign invader. It was not malicious. Sending in the SI:7 to kill priority targets and weaken the enemy is not murder, because the people they are killing have attacked your lands, and you are trying to free the people whom they are trying to impose their will upon.
LIke, by the same standard, the asassins sent by the Horde into Ashenvale all commited murder.
You look so dumb mocking the idea that Varian did not commit murder. Murder has a specific definition relating to aforethought. It does not equate to just killing people. All you have done is make a fool of yourself by exposing your own ignorance. Please educate yourself on the efintions used before spouting such ignorance.
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No they liberated Ashenvale from the nightelves by your logic.
Killing, is murder. There is no reason that justifies killing. There is only the willingness to own up to the responsibility of killing.
As of intent, damn right it was malicious when his son was Hostage!
No. Ashenvale was the home of the Night Elves. They stole it from them. Again, you fail to see these blatantly obvious differences. Please learn what the relevant words mean before using them.
In Law, it is not. Murder is defined as killing with malicious aforethought. You can choose to redefine words in your own head but the rest of the world does not follow your fantasies.
I am guessing you are vegan then. If not, you have an ethical obligation to retract that claim. In fact, if you have ever swatted a fly, you must retract that claim.
And even so, that is a dangerous generalization. How about killing in self-defense? There are people out there say terrorists, who will kill people without remorse. Are we not justified in killing them? What if they hold hostages, and the only way to rescue them is by killing the people holding the hostages, so they cannot warn the others. Explain how that is not justified.
Also, this contradicts your easlier statement that:
If Sylvanas kills people, which she does, then she is doing an act you have defined as being unjust under every circumstance, meaning she is doing something wrong. You did not really think this thought did you?
Trying to save his own son is malicious? Are you out of your mind?
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