Blizzard spent most of 3 expansions (Cataclysm, MoP and WoD), showcasing how detrimental it was for the faction, to base their ideals and define their motives by using Orc standards.
Old approaches simply don’t work. They did for a while, as their strength was spent in past conflicts and the faction was made up by outcasts that settled with simply surviving.
That’s no more.
Use the orc mindset as predominant values, and the game has proven us that this tends towards the likes of Garrosh.
Which is reasonable: why would anyone settle with simply surviving when being from a culture that glorifies strength AND also have the numbers/force to back up any claim you want to have?
The crux of the discussion was about imposing the old Horde values to the current Horde races. Seemingly, regardless if that makes sense or not given their current situation.
That’s an hyperbole. You are using the sacrifice of a few soldiers required on a strategical level in a very specific situation, and stating there is a trend.
News flash, Baine, Saurfang and Thrall have already killed more Horde soldiers than her by both direct and indirect action in the Swamp of Sorrows, Sylvanas flagship, and the Underhold.
That is where you are mistaken! Orcs are savage for the sake of survival, and have their bloodlust which takes them over, even without the Demon corruption.
This is very evident by the entire WoD expansion where even Maghar are “Conquerors”.
That is Orc nature by default. Even in Chronicle 2 , they gained respect for the Draenai after they considered them challenging enough in combat, yet they would still skirmish (even before Demonic corruption).
So just because Thrall was like “oh we’ll be good from now on”
It doesnt delete the past, history and nature of a people. The Horde are a War-like people in their Majority
It was not just Thrall, the same mindset is similar to lots of orcs, such as Frostwolves and the heroes like Gorgonna and Nazgrim, Eitrigg and Airok, Dranosh and Varok Saurfang, and even Jorin Deadeye seemed to be more of the reasonable people.
Maybe we could agree at the very least that each orcish clan is having different mindset and principles?
Let’s not lump them all in same bag, as there is a difference between laughing scull orc and blackrock.
No thats my point just because Thrall acts in a way it doesnt mean “Orcs” are that. A single leader doesnt reprsent the mindsets of all his people.
Same way like how even though Anduin pursues peace, alot of Humies disagree (Genn brightest example).
So that way, it does make sense for Sylvannas to “have the support of the people” as is mentioned.
After all the Orc as people are comprised many clans as u mentioned, many of which ARE Warlike and Bloodthirsty in a way. And not because they are “evil”. They are merely hunters, challengers, conquerors etc however you want to put it.
To this day, it remains uncertain about what Afrasiabi meant with the Wrathgate bit, as another interview down the line came explicitly to clarify that they didn’t meant what players thought it meant a first.
Regarding the rest, you are grasping at straws if you need to somehow spin Pit of Saron as something she is to be held responsible for.
And the fact that you are needing to bring stuff from before her current role and characterisation as poster character for the faction conflict, means that as of now you can’t think of situations where she is indeed killing Horde soldiers as much as Alliance in the ongoing faction conflict.
Saurfang kills a whole regiment of Forsaken soldiers in swamp of sorrows, and was willing to sacrifice any amount of soldiers at Lordaeron for as long as Anduin got to stop Sylvanas.
Baine kills and beats Forsaken soldiers on Sylvanas flagship.
Saurfang and Thrall storm Orgrimmar and then kill more Horde soldiers, including Sunreavers.
Is there conclusive and explicit proof of this?
And even if it’s true, that doesn’t erase the simple fact that during this ongoing faction conflict story and her tenure as acting Warchief, Sylvanas hasn’t directly killed as many troops as plenty other Horde guys that are still praised for their standpoint.
People won’t get behind faction leaders that are this willing to kill or sacrifice their own people or allies, based on flimsy moral justifications.
If any general advertised his rulership as one of sacrificing soldiers on a moral altar for as long as they didn’t cross some ambiguous moral line, regardless if them doing so would save their lives or make them triumph, most average soldiers would probably send him packing with that kind of crap.
And I personally don’t feel like taking moralist speeches from someone that is so willing to put their enemy’s wellbeing above the one of their own, while also displaying openly an attitude that tags their allies as expendable fodder to be sacrificed for their mindset (Forsaken), or a necessary evil comparable to vermin (Goblins).
Wonder how would people react if Sylvanas stormed Thunderbluff and started killing Tauren soldiers loyal to Baine because they stand in her way to some other goal.
We are already getting all sorts of indicators regarding an ongoing double standard that has Sylvanas getting slack for sacrificing soldiers out of necessity, while Saurfang is praised even when openly admitting his willingness to sacrifice the army in a pretty (and pointless) ‘Honourable death’.
That is complete headcanon. There are no specific numbers applied to the amount of Horde soldiers killed. You do not know how many Horde soldiers Sylvanas has killed, nor how many the others have killed.
It is also quite dishonest to compare the amount Horde killed by one person, against three others, but I guess you needed to up the numbers on the anti-Sylvanas gang somehow.
You made one mistake however, by writing “indirect action”. If we take indirect action into account, every Horde soldier that died due to Sylvanas invading Teldrassil by land instead of sea, every Horde soldier that died in the war because she chose not to capture Teldrassil, every Horde soldier that died at Lordaeron because she failed to use the blighr prior to the Alliance attack, and all those who fell when she used it, died by her hand.
“We?” I do not remember talking to you about anything, Besides, the Zandalari who lived there, if they ever lived there, are long dead, and the landmass was reshaped and moved by the Sundering, meaning it is not even the same land. Besides, the person who that quote was in reply to, talked specifically about the trolls in the Horde. The Zandalari were not part of the Horde during War of the Thorns, so I fail to see how “We” are talking about the Zandalari.
There is also no records of Night Elves slaugthering trolls to take Ashenvale. It is stated that they simply settled there after the Sundering.
Considering that you have no illustrated that they took the land from the Zandalari, or explained why they have a claim to that land, I see no meaning to this question. The Horde did not need the land, having previously agreed to withdraw from it, and commited genocide against the people living there, while tormenting natural inhabitants. It is just senseless violence.
Sylvanas kills her own Forsaken too. and similar amount if not more. But you condemn Saurfang.
And I do found her accountable for Wrathgate, because
she ordered blight creation herself, not RAF
Wrathgate can only mean that either she was incredibly incompetent or she did it purposely. There is no third option. I was leaning to her beig just plain stupid that she tusted dreadlord and known gilnean traitor. - in this case I’d also blame her for death of soldiers both Horde and forsaken.
She is killing as much Horde as Alliance.
book, BoL and in patch 8.2 where she admits that she sends her people on sure death, those that question her. that trap was meant to be sure death for both Alliance and the Horde.
So excuse me I’m not enamored with another Warchief that doesn’t give a damn about the Horde.
Yes, I agree that Baine is no authority to I guess majority of people. But for supposed “strategic genius” she didn’t do anything to actually confront him about it. If I’d find out that one of the important Horde leaders is still besties with Alliance members I’d do a set up to humilate him about it so his ownpeople would want to show him their piece of mind.
She already did that in Arathi, she killed people that were even loyal to her. Saurfang was not purposely attacking them he was self defending himself, he also gave them warning. It’s Baine that assaulted Sylvanas ship but we didn’t kill off the forsaken (only dark rangers were killable) each forsaken was spared.
So while I condemn his actions and the way he pulled it off, you can’t really compare it to damage she did to the Horde overall.
And you might call Pit of Saron a Straw but it showed her attitude / how she truly felt about the Horde.
Cause it’s elf, and trollz are evil. They apparently cannot even fight back for their homeland without being tagged as evil.
“Was” being the keyword. And no, not every bit of land. If you look on the maps of Azeroth from after the Aquir war from Chronicles, you will find that the Zandalari’s holdings were nowhere near Ashenvale. Those areas were held by the troll ancestors of the Night Elves.
No, they are long dead because trolls do not live for eons.
So it appears you are arguing that the Horde are right to claim an area on behalf of a faction that was not part of them by the time they did it, with no one alive in that faction having ever lived in that area, with most likely no one dead having done so either. So how did the Night Elves take Ashenvale from the trolls?
Hourly reminder that the likely alternatives are all terrible and that many of us support her purely to spite the writers for their awfulbad decisions.
Well no, as I illustrated above. The Alliance stills has living members of Lordaeron in their ranks, that were forced out of their Kingdom. No troll in the Horde has lived in Ashenvale.
And even so, that is irrelevant as I care little about Lordaeron.
Instead of making such a pathetic attempt at a gotcha moment by trying to change the subject, how about just admiting you were wrong, seeing as you cannot provide any actual argument for your case?
Are people here seriously entertaining the claim that Ashenvale is Zandalari territory? If so, I have a picture for you:
https://imgur.com/a/U4b5Mfx
If any trolls had a claim to Ashenvale it ain’t the Zandalari, but the Dark Trolls. And they’re either dead or the residents as of last xpac backwards for more than 10,000 years.
So you would support Sylvanas over Baine as Warchief?
Baineland was never said to encompass all of Azeroth \o\
On the one hand: a genocidal moustache twirling cartoon villain who thinks nothing of killing her own people and sending two rogues to kill Saurfang and Thrall. On the other, a Tauren who’s done nothing but fight for the honour of the Horde (through his own way) and only killed those he had to. Yes Yes, Taurajo Taurajo TAURAJO!