Is the Horde unredeemable at this point?


#77

It makes me curious why medivh didnt bring evidence of his claims.
I mean he shoud have known he sounded like a raving mad man.


#78

Medivh’s logic actually makes me mad.

Of course the leaders of Lordaeron weren’t going to listen to him, since he literally gave them no reason to believe he was telling the truth. And even if he was, the idea itself would just be impossible to follow. You can’t just move the entire population of multiple kingdoms on the other side of the ocean in time to fight the Legion.

So Medivh, after failing to provide any evidence as to why Lordaeron should trust him, just arrogantly claims that they chose their destiny. They didn’t “choose their destiny” as much as they did what any logical person would: ignore a random madman who is spouting BS.


#79

Your knowledge of human lore is impressive.


#80

I mean, thank you, but you don’t need to know Human lore to understand that. What kind of king does what a random madman tells him to do, with no proof whatsoever to back their claim?


#81

The most reasonable person did indeed listen. And unlike Daelin she is still alive :slight_smile:


#82

I was refeering to your posts in general and your welcome.

And because of her betrayel we now have a nuked tharamor, a burned tedrassil, countless of alliance members dead.
All for the small small price of letting a group of monster live because she like there leader.

I do feel pity for the horde players.
It got to be terrible to have your faction reduced to monsters.
Not as bad as being the monsters victem but still kinda sad.

I really hope the black empire forces both factions into near extinction.
It is the only way to salvage what is left of the story that i can think off.


#83

Yeah, and she lost Theramore because of her “being right”. At that point I’d just accept being wrong.


(Zarao) #84

The war that raged in Cataclysm was declared by a Varian (and fanned by the Twilight Hammer), after he blamed the entire Horde for Putress and Varimathras.

So, regardless of how willing the Horde was to engage in it, they weren’t the ones that outright started it.

As I said, from that point onward it was either fight or die. Regardless of how negative said consequences were for the Alliance.

And Varian decided that the best course of action regarding Yogg Saron was to let him kill them all.

Nobody is spotless, and arguing for genocide is never reasonable.
Specially regarding people that helped the world and saved it repeatedly.
There is an exhaustive list of “kills” in Chronicles Vol.3.
And that’s not counting Thralls role in Cataclysm.

Legion started on a note that had the Alliance intelligence leading both sides into a trap that killed the Hordes Warchief.
And still, regardless of the amount of clarification given, they are the ones pissy about some perceived abandonment after hearing a retreat horn??

Blizzard doesn’t need either. They used Sylvanas as a mouthpiece for a list of grudges that were left unanswered.

Whats the Alliance motivation? Theramore? Gilneas? The one that ordered such is dead. As are his apologists.

The motives Yrel has, have nothing to do with anything the Iron Horde did.
They even call them friends.


(Araphant) #85

Its not like he literally witnessed all the kinds of fun things which the Forsaken did in the Undercity Apothecarium first-hand. But I guess those humans were organ-donors too, old boy. Am I right?

For instance, this brave woman donated her brain to the Forsaken, so they could study it and cure all sorts of ailments.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Theresa

Gerard Abernathy says: It was simple once I broke her spirit.

Gerard Abernathy says: Everyone has a weakness, it’s just a matter of finding it.

Gerard Abernathy says: I managed to discover that certain parts of the brain when removed or stimulated will make the subject much more docile.

Gerard Abernathy says: You don’t expect me to give up all of my secrets, do you?

Gerard Abernathy says: A little torture, a pinch of magic, and an ample helping of invasive surgery. She was conscious, of course.

Gerard Abernathy says: A little ritual torture can go a long way.

Poor innocent Sylvanas, blamed for Putress and Varimathras, so unjust is Varian in his evil accusations and Alliance Imperialism.

Tracking Putress to the Apothecarium, Varian and Jaina defeated him. But to Varian’s horror, they also discovered dozens of mutilated and defiled human corpses, on which the Apothecary Society experimented on to create the New Plague. Realizing that, although the Alliance and Horde agreed to a small truce over the years, the Forsaken had been secretly creating a means to kill them all.

The tragic story of how human racism and warmongering destroyed the First Forsaken clinic developing cures for Azeroth’s diseases. I bet the primitive brutes didn’t even know what surgery is!

Ps.

The Royal Apothecary Society is actually the Varimathrassian Apothecary Society, but the evil writers retconned it to make Sylvanas more evil.

Someone said it in an interview once, true story.


(Zakkaru) #86

Yea, Forsaken were always diet Scourge. There are plenty of anvil hints regarding it. Everyone that thinks they are tuly part of the Horde are fooling themselves.
Ever since vanilla there were plenty of sources claiming how they’re only in Horde for convenience. Add this bit, together with their intro, and original Darkspear description, Wrathgate and you start to wonder if Blizzard wanted to screw Horde this badly since the very start.


(Zarao) #87

The same stuff that the Horde ruling body decided to closure, police, and guard upon discovering such too?

And how is this any relevant regarding who started the war?
We know the Horde revolted against this too. To the point they started policing the activities of one of their allies and placing foreign guards to control them.

The war remained declared regardless.


(Zakkaru) #88

Guard yes, but closure? Entire Cata questing in EK proves you wrong.


(Araphant) #89

IT DID?! I must have missed the memo, I could have sworn that the Forsaken kept experimenting on people and blighting everything. For instance, Garrosh took such a firm approach regarding Blight that entire Gilneas was drenched in it. Sylvanas was brutally punished after.

And I do remember the Hillsbrad quests, where the humans lived in happiness and prosperity. Its not like the experimentation and blight production was stopped, old boy. You can’t deny that!

It is pretty relevant when your claim is “Varian started the war after blaming the entire Horde for Varimathras and Putress”

Which is pretty untrue, regardless of the fact that Varian did indeed start the war, after seeing the Undercity theme park of daffodils and ponies.


(Zarao) #90

Garrosh forbade the creation and usage of Plague. The head of state of the Horde faction, it’s highest ranking member, positioned himself against it.

The Forsaken obviously would still use it, as fitting as it is, but again the Horde organisation as a whole, positioned itself against said practice.

And again, this is still going on a tangent regarding the initial issue, which was that the Horde didn’t declare the Cataclysm war. Varian did.
Regardless of how much the Horde faction, as a whole, worked on fixing the issue that amplified and cemented the decision to do such.

If you want to argue how the aftermath of the Wrathgate still proved Daelin reasonable regarding the Horde faction, maybe it would’ve been better if the Horde as a whole hadn’t had an almost mirrored reaction as Varian regarding those events.


(Zakkaru) #91

He said that, but he didn’t enforce that. Forsaken continued to create and deploy the Plague. When you play through the Worgen questing experience it just shows that Forsaken never really intended to follow Warchief’s orders.

Let’s be honest Horde was incredibly inept when it came to dealing with them.
Blight is again excessively produced and again used on foe and ally alike.
If Horde was successful in truly policing them, they would change their warfare completely. But it didn’t happen.


(Zarao) #92

Being unsuccessful when dealing with it, doesn’t translate into widespread acceptance. We even know that the list of specific stuff that got Varian all riled up, had a similar effect on the Horde generals and populace.

The Alliance was unsuccessful with dealing with plenty stuff from their own closet and I wouldnt say the entire faction is to be blamed for it.

Again, if Daelin being reasonable requires having Horde to actively accept this stuff, this certainly wasn’t a case for it.

Ps: Even if the initial point was about which faction had indeed started that particular war, but whatever.


(Araphant) #93

No one said Daelin is reasonable, Keydiam’s initial argumentation was that the writing is so atrocious that it makes him seem reasonable.

The same way that Saurfang and Baine are supposed to be honorable protagonists, but only seem like two hypocrites. That’s the point of the argument, its not a disguised “DAELIN DID NOTHING WRONG!”


(Zarao) #94

:point_down:

I disagree with anyone that argues that Daelin acting as an apologist for genocide of a faction with its lights and shades, as the Horde is, could ever even seem to be reasonable.

Even if the wording of those posts made it appear as if it was a tad beyond “seem”.

Anyway, I’ll leave it here. Made my point.


(Araphant) #95

I leave too, this is not for me to argue. I said my piece.


#96

I mean, they did it after Garrosh (sort of?), who also blew up a major Alliance city.

My guess is they’ll just blame it on the ‘crazy’ leader as usual and move on.

Let’s not get into the fact that there might be something inherently flawed in a political system where the leader can just randomly choose their successor while dying and seeing crazy spirit hallucinations… or the inherent militant nature of the position called WARchief, coupled with all the glorification of past violent conquerors… Why are we surprised the Horde are the baddies again?