Is the Horde unredeemable at this point?


#83

Yeah, and she lost Theramore because of her “being right”. At that point I’d just accept being wrong.


(Zarao) #84

The war that raged in Cataclysm was declared by a Varian (and fanned by the Twilight Hammer), after he blamed the entire Horde for Putress and Varimathras.

So, regardless of how willing the Horde was to engage in it, they weren’t the ones that outright started it.

As I said, from that point onward it was either fight or die. Regardless of how negative said consequences were for the Alliance.

And Varian decided that the best course of action regarding Yogg Saron was to let him kill them all.

Nobody is spotless, and arguing for genocide is never reasonable.
Specially regarding people that helped the world and saved it repeatedly.
There is an exhaustive list of “kills” in Chronicles Vol.3.
And that’s not counting Thralls role in Cataclysm.

Legion started on a note that had the Alliance intelligence leading both sides into a trap that killed the Hordes Warchief.
And still, regardless of the amount of clarification given, they are the ones pissy about some perceived abandonment after hearing a retreat horn??

Blizzard doesn’t need either. They used Sylvanas as a mouthpiece for a list of grudges that were left unanswered.

Whats the Alliance motivation? Theramore? Gilneas? The one that ordered such is dead. As are his apologists.

The motives Yrel has, have nothing to do with anything the Iron Horde did.
They even call them friends.


(Araphant) #85

Its not like he literally witnessed all the kinds of fun things which the Forsaken did in the Undercity Apothecarium first-hand. But I guess those humans were organ-donors too, old boy. Am I right?

For instance, this brave woman donated her brain to the Forsaken, so they could study it and cure all sorts of ailments.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Theresa

Gerard Abernathy says: It was simple once I broke her spirit.

Gerard Abernathy says: Everyone has a weakness, it’s just a matter of finding it.

Gerard Abernathy says: I managed to discover that certain parts of the brain when removed or stimulated will make the subject much more docile.

Gerard Abernathy says: You don’t expect me to give up all of my secrets, do you?

Gerard Abernathy says: A little torture, a pinch of magic, and an ample helping of invasive surgery. She was conscious, of course.

Gerard Abernathy says: A little ritual torture can go a long way.

Poor innocent Sylvanas, blamed for Putress and Varimathras, so unjust is Varian in his evil accusations and Alliance Imperialism.

Tracking Putress to the Apothecarium, Varian and Jaina defeated him. But to Varian’s horror, they also discovered dozens of mutilated and defiled human corpses, on which the Apothecary Society experimented on to create the New Plague. Realizing that, although the Alliance and Horde agreed to a small truce over the years, the Forsaken had been secretly creating a means to kill them all.

The tragic story of how human racism and warmongering destroyed the First Forsaken clinic developing cures for Azeroth’s diseases. I bet the primitive brutes didn’t even know what surgery is!

Ps.

The Royal Apothecary Society is actually the Varimathrassian Apothecary Society, but the evil writers retconned it to make Sylvanas more evil.

Someone said it in an interview once, true story.


(Zakkaru) #86

Yea, Forsaken were always diet Scourge. There are plenty of anvil hints regarding it. Everyone that thinks they are tuly part of the Horde are fooling themselves.
Ever since vanilla there were plenty of sources claiming how they’re only in Horde for convenience. Add this bit, together with their intro, and original Darkspear description, Wrathgate and you start to wonder if Blizzard wanted to screw Horde this badly since the very start.


(Zarao) #87

The same stuff that the Horde ruling body decided to closure, police, and guard upon discovering such too?

And how is this any relevant regarding who started the war?
We know the Horde revolted against this too. To the point they started policing the activities of one of their allies and placing foreign guards to control them.

The war remained declared regardless.


(Zakkaru) #88

Guard yes, but closure? Entire Cata questing in EK proves you wrong.


(Araphant) #89

IT DID?! I must have missed the memo, I could have sworn that the Forsaken kept experimenting on people and blighting everything. For instance, Garrosh took such a firm approach regarding Blight that entire Gilneas was drenched in it. Sylvanas was brutally punished after.

And I do remember the Hillsbrad quests, where the humans lived in happiness and prosperity. Its not like the experimentation and blight production was stopped, old boy. You can’t deny that!

It is pretty relevant when your claim is “Varian started the war after blaming the entire Horde for Varimathras and Putress”

Which is pretty untrue, regardless of the fact that Varian did indeed start the war, after seeing the Undercity theme park of daffodils and ponies.


(Zarao) #90

Garrosh forbade the creation and usage of Plague. The head of state of the Horde faction, it’s highest ranking member, positioned himself against it.

The Forsaken obviously would still use it, as fitting as it is, but again the Horde organisation as a whole, positioned itself against said practice.

And again, this is still going on a tangent regarding the initial issue, which was that the Horde didn’t declare the Cataclysm war. Varian did.
Regardless of how much the Horde faction, as a whole, worked on fixing the issue that amplified and cemented the decision to do such.

If you want to argue how the aftermath of the Wrathgate still proved Daelin reasonable regarding the Horde faction, maybe it would’ve been better if the Horde as a whole hadn’t had an almost mirrored reaction as Varian regarding those events.


(Zakkaru) #91

He said that, but he didn’t enforce that. Forsaken continued to create and deploy the Plague. When you play through the Worgen questing experience it just shows that Forsaken never really intended to follow Warchief’s orders.

Let’s be honest Horde was incredibly inept when it came to dealing with them.
Blight is again excessively produced and again used on foe and ally alike.
If Horde was successful in truly policing them, they would change their warfare completely. But it didn’t happen.


(Zarao) #92

Being unsuccessful when dealing with it, doesn’t translate into widespread acceptance. We even know that the list of specific stuff that got Varian all riled up, had a similar effect on the Horde generals and populace.

The Alliance was unsuccessful with dealing with plenty stuff from their own closet and I wouldnt say the entire faction is to be blamed for it.

Again, if Daelin being reasonable requires having Horde to actively accept this stuff, this certainly wasn’t a case for it.

Ps: Even if the initial point was about which faction had indeed started that particular war, but whatever.


(Araphant) #93

No one said Daelin is reasonable, Keydiam’s initial argumentation was that the writing is so atrocious that it makes him seem reasonable.

The same way that Saurfang and Baine are supposed to be honorable protagonists, but only seem like two hypocrites. That’s the point of the argument, its not a disguised “DAELIN DID NOTHING WRONG!”


(Zarao) #94

:point_down:

I disagree with anyone that argues that Daelin acting as an apologist for genocide of a faction with its lights and shades, as the Horde is, could ever even seem to be reasonable.

Even if the wording of those posts made it appear as if it was a tad beyond “seem”.

Anyway, I’ll leave it here. Made my point.


(Araphant) #95

I leave too, this is not for me to argue. I said my piece.


#96

I mean, they did it after Garrosh (sort of?), who also blew up a major Alliance city.

My guess is they’ll just blame it on the ‘crazy’ leader as usual and move on.

Let’s not get into the fact that there might be something inherently flawed in a political system where the leader can just randomly choose their successor while dying and seeing crazy spirit hallucinations… or the inherent militant nature of the position called WARchief, coupled with all the glorification of past violent conquerors… Why are we surprised the Horde are the baddies again?


(Keydiam) #97

I don’t want to argue about every single point here anymore, but let me rephrase my initial statement for a better understanding.

Daelin Proudmoore as a character was intended to be in the wrong. That was the entire purpose of the campaign: He was supposed to be someone stuck in the past, someone who couldn’t let go of his hatred, and didn’t see the future. You are also supposed to feel sympathy for him: You can understand why he is the way he is. And now with BfA you can also see that he was a loving and caring father which makes him even more likeable. But, he was still in the wrong regarding the Horde.

…or was he? And this is the central problem. If you want a character like Daelin to be in the wrong, then you need to show it. You need to show that the Horde has changed for the better otherwise you’re undermining your own narrative. You can introduce a character like Garrosh. And I think Garrosh was actually decently written: Many younger orcs looked up to him, as they didn’t really understand why they get punished for the sins of their forefathers. An interesting angle with potential for the future plot.

In the end only the most fanatical and brutal parts of the Horde sided with Garrosh at least according to Blizzard. And that should have been it. Over. Finished. The Horde was now fully reformed. Well…two years later and we have Sylvanas a whole different caliber.

Something like Teldrassil should have never happened. And Saurfang should have never been willing to follow Sylvanas into another war. But, both of these events happened. Not only that it becomes even worse: Sylvanas has the support of the people according to the writers.

And you’ve done it Blizzard: Your writing is collapsing on top of you. You’re telling me that the people follow Sylvanas? Have the orcs especially not learned anything? Why are the blood elves fine with the Ashenvale campaign? Does no one of them thinks about the Third War and how similar these events are?

And now I look back at Daelins statement, how the Horde will never change. He was proven right in the end. Maybe I can go further: He was pretty reasonable. If he would have wiped out the Horde then maybe the night elves wouldn’t be homeless now.

And with this now in mind everything comes back, every single betrayal, backstab, attack or war crime the Horde has ever committed. Everything piles up and it gets more. Other factions got completely wiped out for lesser crimes.

BfA has undermined the writing of years. The current writing is not even atrocious anymore. The writing is so bad, that the English language hasn’t a word for it (at least I cannot think of any). The entire development of the Horde from Warcraft 3 up until Mists of Pandaria was thrown out of the window for cheap shock value, and because the Horde had to start another war. Why? No one knows.

But, Blizzard finally did it: The completely and fully ruined the lore.


(Blunderhoof) #98

While I agree with you. If Blizzard was actually serious about #Morally grey then a character such as Daelin Proudmoore would’ve fit in perfectly.
Yes, he was wrong, but he had his own (good) reasons for doing what he did and his beliefs, and as you wrote Blizzard actually took the opportunity in this expac to flesh him out more. Suddenly a bad guy, as he was portrayed in The Founding of Durotar, is suddenly not so one sided anymore…
To bad Blizzard never bothered giving the Horde races and characters the same courtesy.

It makes this whole expac even more laughable. As some above wants to argue, The Horde " are nothing more than villainous monster races", “why are we surprised” they ask.
Well, the Horde was marketed as something else, Blizzard is the one that came to stage with a “morally grey narrative”. The Horde’s races were sold to us as peoples trying to fight against prejudices and wrongs and show the world and themselves that they were more than just monsters to be wiped out by the “cilivized races”…
Yet more and more it seems that Blizzard did indeed forsake their own special twist on things, the monsters…seem to be indeed nothing more than just that…monsters to be contained because…
And I suppose this is Blizzards big lesson to us as the playerbase(?), in particulair the Horde playerbase…in the end the monsters really are just that…the monsters.
Disillusion only weakly describes the feelings coming from the developments since BFA…but I can t argue against the story before that. Time and again Blizzard needed to point out how “Villainous and barbaric” the Horde are in their narratives…

Coincidently, for the above gnome poster, it also points out how dumb and naive the Alliance is, if it’s just this one sided and obvious, how inept are the Alliance leaders in this case to just let this go on and…perhaps the Alliance leadership secretly likes the death and bloodshed and whereas the Horde’s current warchief claims to want to end it…they just want it to go on /shrug.
Blizzard did say they wanted to teach the player base a lesson…something I can’t get out of my head during all of…this…


#99

Right, right, Daelin is so evil because he wanted to commit genocide. But we’re totally fine with Thrall trying to commit genocide on the quilboars. And before you say “well, but they are a mongrel race, so they don’t count!”, so are the orcs.


(Keydiam) #100

This is just another problem on top of the others. The story is not only terrible for the Horde, but the Alliance heavily suffers from it as well for a variety of different reasons.

But, screw BfA anyway. Classic is upon us. The pure and uncorrupted form of WoW.


#101

I’m also going to play Classic for a while, which is sad. I shouldn’t have to go back to 15 yo old lore because the current lore is trash.


(Blunderhoof) #102

Well, as I see it, and this is just my opinion and maybe very shortsighted, but the initial problem is the Alliance always having to be the unsulliable white knights in the narrative, by contrast and because of that the Horde must always be the ones to do something heinous for the “Hero Faction” to respond too.
I apologise if that sounds childish but That is where I see it all falling flat on it’s face…if this is what Blizzard wants Horde=Evil and Alliance=Good then they may aswe just dispense with the BS and just come out and say it, so everyone knows where they stand.
Because what I see is an unwillingness to actually give both sides a good reasoning and a story you can feel empathic too, something that actually feels like their proclaimed “morally grey”.

I am of two minds on Classic…I had a great time playing then and the current story has became so abhorrent that it’s actually nice to go back to a faction atmosphere you could actually relate too.
On the other hand I love the new character models and allot of the quality of life stuff and tuning that we received during the long years. I’m afraid that gameplay wise it may just turn out to be a bigger turn off then BFA is.