Just reminding about sub rogue, a spec being completly useless for the whole expansion except for one boss. Just like in Legion where noone could play sub until his 7.2.5 mini-rework.
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im a huge fan of subtlety rogue but after the removal of shuriken combo after idk like 2/3 nerfs on the actual passive. blizzard realized it would be too much of a hassle to fix the spec so they just destroyed it instead. if we jump back to legion all three rogue specs where very good designed. i wish i could backtrack to legion sub rogue oh my god what a joy with the artifact, you could do some insane combo´s not just the usual finality buff into Death from Above.
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I don’t need a reminder about a spec I don’t wish to play,
This sounds like another crazy thread from crazy Ol’ roguey mc rouge.
pfft “rogue”…“useless”…
Sub rogue is useless. Its a meme spec at this point. If youre playing it youre effectively gimping your raid.
Sub is seemingly potentially pretty good supposedly. whether its 8.2.5 or 8.3 PVE I’m not sure but you are a CC bot in PVP yes.
so to you, “useless” is directly better than a death knight in every way? Something doesn’t add up here.
He isn’t talking about ROGUES IN GENERAL he’s talking about SUBTLETY ROGUES, a spec that is currently at the bottom and performs worse than DK in raid, dungeons and all brackets of PvP (save for double DPS in 2s). I’d say only Enha is as bad as Subtlety currently.
I guarantee you that I could make a sub rogue and do better than my dk within maybe a week if i worked at it.
That means you’re horrible at DK because in PvE at MDI Sub is never used while DKs are, in raid DK logs are always better than Sub logs, (I think both DK specs), and in PvP, in 3s both Unholy and Frost were used at the AWC, zero sub rogues.
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Anybody with a sane mind would take a DK into raids over a freakin sub rogue. The sub rogue would be told to go Assa (not even outlaw in raids anymore) or P off.
That would only mean youre terrible at DK. Sub rogues are trash. Assa and Outlaw are the ones that pump. And even there DKs are superior to assa rogues in certain aspects like Add duty during Azshara Phase 2 while rogues excel at ST bursting during P3.
The whole emphasis being SUB rogue here.
The spec got completely butchered over BFA. It was good during Uldir for one reason only, ST DMG while adds are being present (ranges and melees were forbidden to dps the hound adds on Zul. Only the rogues were allowed. Only cleave acceptable was to kill them off right before the next bunch spawns). So as a result Blizzard removed shuriken combo because they realized it was broken (orly? Nobody would have ever imagined that. Not like Sub rogues were 25-50% of the raids DMG done during Host in ToS cough cough).
The only thing they got in return was a laughable buff to their Shuriken Storm AoE dmg without any compensation to either their ST or ST Burst (the whole reason for the specs existance). The cleave was ruled over by Outlaw and was even then still lower than assas cleave. Making its AoE aspect completely obsolete. Its burst aspect was surpassed by Assa and the sustained dmg was ruled supreme by Assa anyway.
Completely ripping the spec from any kind of solid ground. Not even saying “ye it has less of either but a bit of both” would apply, as it isnt the case.
The last glory it had was during the end of Legion were it semi playable and before that during HFC where the spec was High Risk High Reward (as it should be. You executed your spec flawlesly? Good. Top dps. You fail? Down you go)
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Do I seriously need to level to 120 on a rogue just to prove a point?
To be honest tho, you seem so convinced that it is bad that it probably wouldn’t even matter if i did even when it would inevitably prove my point.
Yeah please do. I wonder who will remain correct. The Hall of Fame Rogue/several CE player that backs his claim up with warcraft logs for Subs/rogues, theorycrafting, and math or the HC DK raider that is salty about Assa and Outlaw being extremely good specs so he cant see that Sub is trash.
Assa is extremely good on ST. Outlaw is king in M+ because of high cleave fine ST and shroud and Sub is bad in all aspects. Its only “point” would be Shroud and more CC (if you even need it, considering the meta build for the really high keys) in M+. Frankly both Assa and Outlaw also provide it. While significally outdpsing it on both AoE and ST (both specs do)
But you are correct. There is no point discussing it with you, as you clearly have no knowledge of the materia whatsoever. You arent even capable of looking at logs in the very least.
Death Knights, all specs, pure ST time with close to full uptime : https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/23#boss=2298&class=DeathKnight
Subtlety Rogues, same fight : https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/23#boss=2298&class=Rogue&spec=Subtlety
Best Frost DK is 65k, best Unholy DK is 60k, best Sub Rogue is 55k. Both DK specs at their peak deal 10%-20% more damage than Subtely Rogue at its peak.
Death Knights, all specs, pure AoE fight : https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/23#boss=2303&class=DeathKnight
Subtely Rogues, same fight : https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/23#boss=2303&class=Rogue&spec=Subtlety
Best Frost DK is 94k, best Unholy DK is 74k, best Subtlety Rogue is 71k. While Unholy played at its best is only dealing 5% more damage than Subtlety Frost played at its best is dealing 33% more damage.
Conclusion : both DK specs perform better than Subtlety Rogue in any raid situation in the existing tier.
Dungeons : see MDI, zero sub rogues while DKs are played.
PvP : I HOPE I don’t need to explain why Sub is horrible in 3s and not played at all past the rating clown specs are played at. See AWC.
damn those “checks notes” sub rogue?
Now that i have levelled from 20 to 119, i think rogues should be buffed because i play that class now. I’m not being too strong enough.
Also its a fat sub rogue coz i’m not gonna take this thing seriously in the slightest, that’s why I specced to not need to stand behind the enemy, because im very subtle… also i let the enemy know im coming in pvp with that one talent because why not.
Why are you taking your time to post logs for this sh1thead clown? It’s so obvious he’s here not to have a discussion. Just ignore this nobody. Let’s flag his posts and get him outta here.
It’s been 6 days since people made well detailed replies. Where is your answer on their take? Please respond swiftly to keep the discussion alive.
why it’s right here on this fatass rogue, he takes the time to eat cheetos while hes shanking the enemy with his no-skill gloomblade build.
So, what i’ve noticed so far is that the single target for sub is pretty good, the aoe on the other hand is a little wierd, i could not for the life of me figure out how it’s intended to work… anyway it feels like they forgot to put an aoe combo point spender on the baseline of the spec.
but then again you can just spam gloom blade instead of wasting time with that shuriken nonesense and it more often seems to result in more damage than the ability that is actually designed for aoe.
during shadow dance? spam gloom blade
no shadow dance? spam gloom blade
the spec seems to completely revolve around just mashing the gloomblade button as often as humanly possible with the odd nightblade or eviscerate added in.
so while it in no way has any issues on single target damage, it most certainly has a problem with aoe damage… ironically that problem is that you actually have to spec for aoe.
edit: also forgot to mention my sub rogue is already at the stage that it is challenging my dk in doing this with a /played at this level of 1 day and 0 hours