Level squish survey


#167

And there is certainly room for discussion for what sort of changes the leveling system would need (if it needs to be changed at all). :slight_smile: I’d just caution against people using some elaborate vision of revamped talents and stat scaling as an argument for a level squish. As you said, a level squish in itself is pointless, therefore we shouldn’t advocate for a level squish - we should look at the actual changes that people think would accompany the level squish, because those are the actual changes we should be discussing.

For example people bring up meaningful rewards for every level, that’s not a discussion about the level squish. We had talent points for every level (above 10) and it wasn’t meaningful either. We basically looked forward to the juicy milestone rewards that were buried midway down the talent tree under a ton of boring passives. Increases my parry chance by 1/2/3/4/5%… was hardly an interesting or impactful reward for 5 levels :wink:

Let’s discuss meaningful rewards. Should every level feel like a meaningful reward? (I wouldn’t consider upgrading Conjure Food Rank 2 to Conjure Food Rank 3 a meaningful class reward for example). We don’t have enough impactful class skills or talents to last even 60 levels. And fundamentally, should every level even be meaningful? Wouldn’t that dull the levels into a string of repetitive reward-influx, instead of the significant milestones we now work towards? Is there another way to make levels rewarding? Other games have level rewards that aren’t just a skill point or ability. Perhaps we could also reward zone completion achievements with gear, cosmetics, rep, or some such, as many other games do. I’m sure people have a lot of ideas of their own how they’d like to improve leveling!

Let’s discuss scaling. Let’s discuss leveling times. Let’s discuss talents, or a revamped utility perk system or some major class ability overhaul. Just let’s discuss a level squish for what it is, not for what other good things we can think up that could accompany it, but could also exist without it.


(Gannet) #168

I didn’t get any survey and it’s irrelevant to the question at hand anyway, the survey implies prior knowledge of the level squish.


#169

There are several ways to ‘lose’ an argument. But pretending that your assertion is correct and the game should be changed according to your preference becuase it’s other people’s job to disprove it is not an argument at all. Neither is throwing out salty references to the cerebral deficiency of your debate partners :slight_smile:

Your analogy is cute, but no. A pile of (:poop: and :cheese:) equals more (:poop: and :cheese:). But more :poop: doesn’t equal more :cheese: . And even if more :cheese: is good, more :poop: won’t automatically be good just because they can accompany each other. Read the survey by the way, they ask about a level squish that reduces the number of levels required to reach endgame, not the time it takes to reach endgame. So that is the definition of the level squish. If they start asking us whether we want to reduce leveling times, we can discuss that. But this question is about a squish.

As for your who’d have thunk it ESO nonsense, gear and endgame is entirely inaccessable to level 50 (cp10) characters. So stop insisting that it’s the ‘max level’. :laughing: We could rename WoW’s lvl 100 the ‘max level’ and rename 111-120 ‘champion points’ that wouldn’t change the fact that the max level is 120, because that’s when you stop outleveling your gear and when you can start doing engame content.

The reason I may have repeated points - I thought of it as reiterating really to explain better in case you perhaps failed to comprehend the implications - is because you contraditct yourself and don’t account for the counterarguments to your points. You say for instance that you want an impactful power progression within the same longer level but insist that power difference would be negligible - what’s the point then. You made vague references to some major stat impact the squish would have, but never once brought up any evidence for it nor demonstarted that Blizz couldn’t just tweak stat scaling without level scaling (as they did before). So I suppose we should be glad that we’ll be spared your replies if all of them revolve around snarky complaints about what others say instead of presenting any evidence for your argument yourself.


#170

I didn’t really follow the argument much, but i can back up the statement on eso cp points, the max level is NOT 50, it’s cp 160, that’s where the gear stops scaling, and you get no more stat points.

Cp is a mix of a progression system and leveling, up to 160, after than it’s purely a progression system.

Also i agree that a level squish is not meaningful in any way, personally i actually would dislike it, because we would probably lose even more power, which ruins progression a bit, when you are doing 1 mil dps, and then next exp you are back at 40k.

I do understand the need, but i don’t think doing it so regularly is good, i have personally no problems at all with reading numbers on the go, up to about a billion, that’s where i would draw the line, legion numbers for me were not a big deal.

But honestly, if the experience required is doubled to account for the level squish, then the fact that the abilities are closer to each other in terms of level, really does not matter, because the time to get there will still be the same, and if they don’t add new abilities like talents etc… it will not help in any way at all.

Just add new talents and abilities.


(Caesa) #171

Just chiming in to point out to everyone that he STILL didn’t actually bother to prove that the Level Squish does not affect the systems I have given countless examples of, because it is far easier to throw the cheese out of the box and repeat points that ESO hides it’s max level behind a max level progression system for a reason that he refuses to even try and put into words or to talk about just because you think you are correct doesn’t make you right.

Level Squish doesn’t do anything people just make me shake my head.


#173

Repost because i accidentally deleted the post while instead i wanted to correct a grammar error.

Basically.

At this point caesa argument seem to be everyone else but me is wrong, so either bring some evidence about your point or it’s just your opinion, and just like every other opinion it can be wrong.

And you are wrong on the eso stuff, so it’s likely you have no real evidence to support your claims.


(Caesa) #174

I did not make an argument or claim there though, beyond the argument that he is wrong for refusing to answer a simple question.

If people want to continue claiming and making the argument the level squish doesn’t accomplish anything instead of going after psychological arguments actually address whether there are mechanical consequences to less but longer levels that retain their current power. Those consequences if they exist would cause the actual effects of the level squish. I brought up an example where since more gear would and could be gained over the course of a single level there’d be more power progression, and the repeated counterargument to that was A) Gearing does not matter while leveling B) But what if people get too strong or not strong enough(too strong can’t happen, too little would still be better than current).

So yeah if people wanna continue to make that claim, please do go into detail how it would actually not change anything when it takes seconds to just look at how Secodary stats work to realise it obviously would.

Also mate don’t try to keep arguing the ESO point, you yourself admitted it is a max level progression beyond the first 160 and you have to be completely disingenous if you try telling me the 160 above 50 is not there because they did not want to raise the max level for some very relevant to this discussion reasons(also CP wasn’t in the game at launch so you can’t even try to say it was easier to make CP a req rather than higher level)


#175

wish it was true.
ive been saying for a while level 120 is insanely high. thats freakin double than the original 60 levels.
i dont know who is crazy enough to start a new character today knowing they have 119 levels to go to start the endgame and begin the real game.

i personally think they should never increase the level again, instead integrate a system that rewards by performing certain activities.


#176

You argument made it seem like level 50 is the max level in eso, which is wrong, just because i agree with you about the progression system does not mean that your claim is correct 100%.

Cp is both leveling up until 160 cp, and a progression system, end of story.

That’s it.


(Caesa) #177

Okay and why is CP 160 the max level rather than a sensible choice of 10-20 more actual levels. It is like they did not want their max level to go up endlessly, how odd. I mean you are correct in how it works and that is the end of that story, but the context in which it was brought up was “Look how high those numbers are” which is ironic when it is hidden behind a first smaller number :stuck_out_tongue:

Also love how like a good anti Level Squish guy your only choosen point to address was a nitpick on ESO, not the pretty clear main point of my post asking for proof that the mechanical effects of a level squish wouldn’t have a positive effect(I mean I’d say prove they have no effect, but I know that’d just be twisted into “Okay they have negative effects, watch me not explain them” so I went ahead and asked for proof of those too)


#178

What I said was that there is no reason to implement a level squish.
No reason for something doesn’t mean that something doesn’t do anything.

My posts were about pointing out that there is no point in introducing a level squish to make leveling shorter for example, when that an entirely unrelated point that can be accomplished without a squish. So that is no reason for a level squish. Same with stat squishes. Scaling changes. Talent overhauls.

Nobody said that a level squish wouldn’t do anything, just that it wouldn’t do the things that people attribute to it that can and were in fact changed several times wihout a level squish already. And when you insisted that the level squish would be great for ‘reasons’ I pointed out that those reasons actually result in problems of their own. You seem more interested in pseudo-intellecual posturing and putting down people on the forums rather than actually presenting anything of substance yourself.

So yes, have to agree with Ryura:


(Caesa) #179

Yes because it is far easier to go against horrible arguments like BIG NUMBERS SCARY, than I dunno actually addressing what the level squish does and looking at the consequences as a whole.

Yet again you keep repeating yourself instead of actually engaging my points. I am only interested in putting down people who refuse to actually talk about the issue at hand and keep shooting it down without actually going over WHAT IT DOES.

So one last chance to see if you have that calcium deficency I assume you do(please recall my if you have a honest bone in your body comment to understand the pun), please go into detail WHAT the mechanical cosequences of the level squish would be and how they’d affect the overall leveling experience.


#180

And again, that’s your job :slightly_smiling_face: You’re the one advocating for this change and dispelling people’s concerns, and assuring people that it would have a robust and meaningful impact on secondary stats and the leveling experience. So please, look up burden of proof and you’ll see that it’s your responsibility to support your argument, not our responsibility to disprove it.

Besides, I already listed several consequences in my replies to you, and they weren’t good reasons to implement a level squish. Such as the power difference between two level 10 characters for example, when one has freshly dinged and the other has spent 5 hours getting geared. It would also ruin progression by forcing people into cyclical power spikes and power drops. For the first half a level you’d be just as powerless as you are now when you ding (but in the new system it would last longer) and in the second half you’d accumulate gear in a twink-like manner leading to power creep. Not only would this interfere with level-based tuning but would also make leveling up far more punishing than it is currently. I also mentioned that while re-learning levels is not impossible, it is unnecessary and creates extra work for no proven benefit. The current talent and spell numbers we have are insufficient to make every level meaningful, so their distribution would be just as arbitrary as it is now even. Furthermore I voiced concerns that a more constant stream of levelup rewards could trivialize that feeling just as most of the old talent points we got were trivial, and said that perhaps the current system of having important milestone rewards gives players more to look forward to instead of desensitizing them with regular shinies. The ‘hurr-durr-big-numbers’ argument as you so lovingly refer to it wasn’t my own opinion as such, but a rebuttal to the ‘numbers are too high we can’t cope with this’ argument that I anticipated would surface - and as it indeed did in this thread several times when people mentioned that stats and level numbers are too high (even though they really aren’t and there would be just a letter difference between seeing 100 or 100k or 100m pop up on our screen). Others, though not me, also voiced concerns about losing their relative power which is an unwelcome feeling after we worked so hard to overpower lower levels, so a power curve should remain across all levels instead of squishing the difference so much that old content becomes challenging again (as we saw with some of the stat squish impacts).

So if you have any actual ‘points’ about the level squish, by all means share it with the thread. But again, it’s not our job to tell you why your idea wouldn’t be a great solution, it’s your job to support that it would be.


(Caesa) #181

So you know, that is already how it works right? You know that it is EXACTLY how current gearing while leveling works RIGHT? That this is how it ALWAYS worked, RIIIIIIGHT? I told you multiple times that current gearing at each level does not allow people to get extremely stronger than those just starting out at it. But even if it say does do that by I dunno 5 ilvls, why is that bad? In a PvE scenario it does not matter and PvP wise it is the least impactful thing when a level 55 is questing in the same zone as a level 22. This is also literally how max level works, with instead of levels tiers reset the gearing progress.

Blatantly false for a few obvious reasons, A) the first half is the exact same as it is now, ie calling it powerless is trying to confuse people, level 23 would be no different from 46 except you don’t get a gear reset at 47 B) How the heck would this mythical powerlessness last longer if the first half of the level(which will be shorter, but lets not bring that argument up again) is the same as the original level 46.

Power acqusition through gear is linear you dunce, ilvls available at each level are constant that means if you replace a full dungeon set from the previous level with one of the current level each item raises your power by overall the same amount, you’d not magically start ramping up quicker in the second half, stop pulling stuff out of your butt.

What tuning? How in gods name does it interfere if mobs do not get stronger within the levels, it is completely player favoured. Speaking of player favoured it will also obviously not make it more punishing since the first half would remain unchanged and the second would continue improving at the same rate.

To also use your own words against you, if the first half of level 23 would feel powerless, then 46 right now feels like that for it’s entirety AND so would 47 which would be the second half of 23, so by your own admission current leveling is bad and if I am correct then the continued linear scaling thanks to gear would overall improve the feeling of power for HALF of the current levels.

You can ignore it all you want, but people have expressed a distaste with too many of the current levels having no rewards, and expanding classes to put something meaningful in most of 120 levels is not viable(not even MoP’s bloated class design where the WoW team literally called quits on adding more stuff could be effectively split over those levels). The reduction of levels can be easily seen as a prereq to actually start redesigning the classes to to work with the leveling system rather doing that while the framework is just not suitable. If you wish to provide a solution to split classes into 120 levels please do come forward with it.

The current system is heavily disliked. I personally do not want the old talent trees and much prefer the current ones, but even then those are way too far apart and not enough other things are inbetween them to feel like you are getting consistent rewards

Where do I even start here. I never claimed you made the point about number being too big, my point was that it is a low hanging fruit that is based on armchair psychology. Trying to push it as the main reason to not do the squish as it is a stupid argument is exactly why I keep pushing for the mechanical impact to be discussed instead.

Secondly the power curve was never gonna change, and people who bring that up have no idea what a level squish is and the survey actually explained that it’d not be impacted, it just fearmongering that some are spreading to make people not like the level squish, which is a much more simpler and has no impact on old content(if we become level 60, then the legacy content becomes whatever is 6 instead of 11 levels under us, which would include everything it currently does, such as ICC which would be a level 40 raid). If you had any interest other than to attack the level squish you could I dunno actually correct the people spewing falsities instead of only going after those you disagree with.

Mate, as the opposition, it is literally your job to point out the flaws in my argument. That being said.

Your little tirade about burden of proof is nice and all, but yeah when you are making the statement that Level Squish does not have benefits, you have to prove those. You’d have a point if this was about debating me, but it isn’t you are trying to appeal to Blizzard here to not go through with it, in which sense the best you can do it actually prove that the mechanical consequences of the squish would be at best neutral at worst damaging, none of which you have even attempted.

Though I must congratulate you for engaging my point about gearing while leveling finally, because that allowed me to actual take your argument and finally take it apart and show how little logic it was grounded in. I mean complaining about that level ups would reset that progress while supporting the system where levelups happen twice as often, that is just priceless.


#182

This is a game where screwing up balance is offered as content.
At a bare minimum with the start of every expansion, classes are trashed, stomped with both feet, then taken a dump on regardless whether they were okay before.

I will never forget what they turned mm legion hunters in this cancer of an expansions just for the sake of changing it.

TL;DR: balancing will never be a problem for blizz cause something you dont give a **** about cant be an issue to you.


#183

Yeah, no. That’s not how it works. You currently earn enough levels fast enough for gear-based power creep to not become an issue while leveling (it’s reserved for max level when gear-based progression kicks in). Someone who spent 5 hours more ingame is 5 levels higher than you, but they’ll be relatively at the same power level since power is based on ilvl compared to lvl. If that same someone would spend 5 hours longer at your level (e.g. a twink) they’d be more powerful even though they’re technically the same level as you (doing the same dungeons, combating the same level enemies, combating you, etc). That’s where tuning comes in btw, if we presume that players can now reach double the power (i.e. if now realistically leveling people will get to an average green/blue quality level-appropriate gear before they ding and outlevel it; with twice the time they’d get to a full blue quality or even blue/purple state) you must consider how you’d balance that.

I called it that because someone here argued that the scaling system sucks because leveling up makes you more powerless (due to the ilvl/playerlevel power scaling that resulted in all those 101 lego twinks in Legion and in Antorus-geared-chars farming islands in BfA). Having twice the time to ramp up power by getting level-appropriate drops would make it twice as punishing when you come down from that power spike high every time you level up.

Currently you spend let’s say 1 hour leveling from 46 to 47. In that time frame you get 5 lvl46 blue drops. You then ding to 47 and spend 1 hour getting 5 lvl47 blue drops, and reach 48. Etc. With the squish you’d spend 2 hours at 23 and get 10 level-appropriate blues. The power difference would therefore be greater. And it’s silly that during every level the last 10% xp needed should be the most fun because you’ve grown relatively more powerful, only to reset to mediocre when you level again and look forward to the second half of the leveling (by the time you accumulated more level-appropriate gear). Leveling shouldn’t revolve around such constant gear-based progression cycles.

And I already addressed that putting something meaningful into all levels isn’t necessarily a good thing. Class abilities don’t have to revolve around player levels, we could be getting new skills every 5 levels and it would be a perfectly fine arbitrary milestone just like dividing 30-odd skills and talents arcross 60 levels would be an arbitrary milestone. We got a Draenor perk that affected our abilities every third level or so, did anybody care? No. We all got to 100 because that’s what leveling is about.

I’m sure you’re not the only one who thinks so. But when people are upset about something they generally make it known (I see outrage threads and Blizzard bashing videos all the time) yet judging by the lack of response, the vast majority of people seem perfectly okay with the way things are now. So to assert with such conviction that the level squish is a good thing, you’d have to point out what (if anything) is wrong with the leveling experience at all, how a level squish would be the most approriate fix to those issues. Besides, people also expressed not wanting a level squish, so we can agree I think that ‘some people think so’ is not evidence that a proposal is good.

They need to compact 120 levels and 400 ilvls into 60 levels. If they don’t change the ilvl then obviously every level would have a much larger ilvl bracket and stat difference than now, leading to power creep. If they do change the ilvls and stats, they are changing the power curve by reducing the difference between the lower and higher levels (as they did during the stat squish). Soloing old content (such as ICC25HC since you mentioned it) is actually noticably longer now than it was before.

Yet another post from you which just ran in circles, threw out insults, jumped to conclusions, and made presumptions, tried to conflate level squish consequences with other things, and made claims that you didn’t support. Perhaps you should try being less reactionary and start a post with a clean slate, outlining the fabled benefits of a level squish. :slight_smile: Maybe then you’d actually get to bringing up evidence and explaining the ‘mechanical impact’ that a level squish would have in your opinion. And as for the burden of proof, when I say ‘there is no reason for a level squish’ the correct counterargument would be to actually present facts of the level squish bringing some benefits (benefits that aren’t the result of something else such a scaling change or a legacy content damage buff or a leveling time decrease).


(Dottie) #184

Looking at the wording of the question it looks like it will happen.


#185

It does look like that, yeah. Although asking that question could’ve really benefited from a follow-up question for the sake of clarity.

First they ask 'How much would you like or dislike a reduction in total character levels’ but they should’ve asked ‘How much would you like or dislike a reduction in total character levels if the leveling time stays the same’ and ‘How much would you like or dislike a reduction in leveling time if the total character levels stay the same’, because right now those two answers could be easily conflated under this one question. That way we could find out whether people’s main issue lies with the number of levels or the length of the leveling process itself.

So the wording seems somewhat deceptive. When it says the squish would 'reduce the total number of levels required to access the most current game content’ it doesn’t ask anything about whether people would actualy be happier to play through 110 levels of non-current game content if they scaled more zones and if leveling was more engaging. Also when they state that the ‘new level cap will be dramatically lower than the current level cap of 120’ they do not mention anything about dramatically increasing our spells or talents, or dramatically changing classes so they don’t suck as much as they do at the end of that dramatically lower number.

So I think the level squish topic is a complete red herring and the question is useless without other questions and context. They should ask actually to-the-point questions about whether people are satisfied with the length of leveling, whether people like the talent system and the number of spells we have and how often we get them, if they like the zone scaling system or what they would change about it, whether they like the current level and power gaps we have or not, what they think about the Draenor perk system and the Artifact system and the Azerite system as separate class skill progression methods instead of fresh talents, etc… Right now all they get is ‘smaller number = good?’ and it doesn’t address most complaints about leveling at all.


#186

Yes, that is why threads like this one exist to prevent that.
WoW has been gutted enough.


(Punyelf) #187

I think there are players for and against and some that simply don’t care.