M+ has been dead when they removed CM 
I remember freehold having insane trash too 
And the bosses were more than terrible. 1st boss was impossible as melee, or you used a seesaw to become small so you were able to hide behind the fence on the 1 shot. I do not even want to start about the councel boss or the sharkboss.
I rly enjoy M+. Tbh, the faster the better 
Like OP said, M+ used to be a fun pastime. Now everything about M+ is made to induce stress and frustration, remove any element of surpise or reward, and encourage intolerance to any deviation of the standard. It turns the dungeon into a frenzied manic experience. And you have to rely on lootbox in the form of vault. But people like it and Blizzard tries to capitalize on it.
So I steer clear of this game mode and just come back occasionally to fetch the story. The rest is for try hards.
11 Likes
I think the dungeons are fine.
I just really hate all the unavoidable and unkickable damage there is…
I would argue that frustration and stress is the design since the inception of M+
A system where failure sets you back instead of simply putting you back at the start. Where the extra elements (affixes) might not be balanced for the dungeon
I agree, part of the frustration is the design that sets a player back regardless of the reasons for a failed key. There are 2 malignant concepts at play here.
- The concept of “losing a key” - a doomsday factor for most players.
- The concept of a “botched rating”: raider IO or in-game - that creates a specific image of you as a player to everyone else.
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Yes Legion was the first and the peak of m+.
and yes i love to play the Legion and WoD/MoP m+. Ok WoD is pretty simple because both are only a corridor of enemies ^^
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lols have to do M+ to get recepts so i can craft 424 gear 
Interesting replies, I will say, for the record, that I did not even play THAT much beta. I should not be tired of the dungeons already.
Also for some reason I am more tired of the DF dungeons in the pool even though I have played them less than Halls and CoS, which I played both in Legion AND on the Beta.
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That’s because, for the sake of your argument, you are trying to prove that DF dungeons are worse design-wise than those of previous xpacs. But that’s mostly you projecting yourself really.
Some DF dungeons suck/are very stressful to do. Key word being “some”. Jade Temple is a very simple dungeon on paper but oh boy is it a nightmare to heal sometimes. Basically every single pack is a pain : party wide damage, debuffs, exploding adds, party wide fears… it’s tiresome to do.
TL;DR : Some dungeons are better than others, no matter the xpac.
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Jade sucks yes, but it is also the dungeon they made the most changes to (even during / from Beta). Which just reinforces my point about post Legion dungeon design when it comes to trash mechanics.
There are zero good M+ dungeons in DF so far. Zero.
BFA I could easily mention dungeons like Atal and Freehold as both being good dungeons (also loved Underrot but I can admit that it was not for everyone, and the dungeons had flaws with ninja pulling for new players and tough bosses on Tyr)
Legion had Maw of Souls, THicket and Court of Stars that I could just mention at the top of my head. Also loved Nelth lair, but again I can see why it was not for everyone.
Some will say that at least Shadowlands had Halls of Attonement, but the 3rd boss until the 4th was clearly so rushed during development covid hell, that I can not get myself to say that I actually enjoyed it. Bad design and awful aesthetics.
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Freehold was a pretty easy timed key. It was one of my least liked dungeons in BfA, but if you needed a quick weekly, it was the place to go.
A lot of people just want to run dungeons and get a little bit of loot at the end of it, and don’t care about different routes and what not.
So it’s a balancing act between the 2 extremes. Personally I prefer the more straight forward dungeons, it means I don’t need to think about what the tank is pull next etc etc.
My only real criticism is that there might be too much trash in some of the new dungeons. Oh and lack of loot.
But blizzard have really messed up the Affixes over the Holiday season whilst there will be more players online. A lot of people are just not going to bother with Bursting and Grevious and it only takes 1 bad run for someone to uninstall the game and play something else. Had the affixes been easier during the Holiday season, you’d find more people will want to come back and play during the more challenging weeks.
3 Likes
So?
Did it even occur to you that Blizzard concept of highly repeatable content isn’t good idea in the first place? 
A superb dungeon is like a raid, so you don’t need to do it many times every day.
There are great ideas for multilevel dungeons which take many hours to fully explore, and with save point system team of players can explore it for few hours every day every time starting from the place where they left. At the end of the week, dungeons reset your progress, so depending on the design there is a lot of room for great weekly content.
Despite the fact that WoW is generating billions, the game content is painful basic, and often cheap. I guess Blizzard didn’t change after all
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Agree. No one wants to be frustrated during holidays. And there is always a competition. I also feel Blizzard doesn’t have enough people to test things out properly so it all ends up as rather unpleasant and stressful experience for both sides
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IDK. The whole argumentation of you @Zhujiang sounds pretty much like a kiddy being unhappy that it takes more than 30min to be maxed out!
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Dungeons are bad
You claim that the dungeons are getting to complicated with issues like to many abilities need attention. Is this really your issue or do you just don’t want to have “kick” in your action bar?
Yes there are groups which get a bit annoying but this doesn’t make dungeons bad in general! There are (and also have been in SL) also many options for big pulls. Ofc I also like if a pack or several are easy and you can just spam AOE creating massive dps numbers. But if I would only want to do that without thinking I would just go to the training dummies. -
Upgradability/Vault/Requirements
I’ve not played the beta and therefore have no idea about the endgame scaling. But going back to SL you only needed the dungeons on +15 for being able to max out items by valor. Most of the people I know where able to get up to 18-20 within each season without bigger issues. We even had a one-armed-clicker who achieved all dungeons 19+. So getting the Rio required for the valor upgrades wasn’t that big of an issue! I have no idea how this will scale this season as the loot goes up to 20 but there were also add-ons/seasons in the past where people were pushing +30 keys so maybe it’s not that hard to get to 20+. There are quite many players already pushing up to +15 with being far from good/max geared.
It feels like you are complaining that you still can’t time 20 key’s despite it’s already the first M+ ID of the patch! OMG!!!
The Vault: in the past you only had to do ONE high key to get an item. Correct! But you also only got one item and if it was crap then you got nothing! Now you can work yourself through multiple dungeons to still get only one item but to increase the chance of it being useful!
This is definitely stupid in the beginning, where almost every item can be an upgrade and it also gets stupid in the end when you might be spending hours to get 8 high dungeons done because you are only hunting for the last 1-2pieces that would be an upgrade and you are unlucky enough to not getting them. But that’s a point where we don’t talk about need anymore but minmaxing. So whatever!
Do the math and see that you can still get one high I’ll item but just doing one dungeon and don’t hate having the option of choice.
I do give you the point that it is annoying only getting the best gear from the Vault and not in the end of dungeon loot!
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Legion fixed gearing through dungeons
I don’t see a fix in forcing players to raid if they don’t want to! Most of the time also M+ players need items from the raid and the don’t want the LFR version. So the also need to grind into at least hc maybe even myth raids even though they don’t like it but just need their set bonus or a specific trinket or weapon to go back to grinding M+ because that’s what they like.
IMHO that system lacks in both directions and I don’t see a fix for it. You need to go M+ to gear yourself for raiding and you need to raid to get some BIS items for raid and M+. -
TF/WF
I do also miss the option! But this is not an issue of dungeons and at least with DF a crafting system was implement which allows you to get decent crafted gear! In SL the only crafted items needed where for the legendaries.
Greetings
4 Likes
Well, the game has to have something that keeps the players online for more than 2 hours a week.
We’ve already been through phases of raidlogging and doing nothing else few expacs ago.
The less you have to do, the less justification to continue paying for the product.
the problem is, similarly to a good movie with a nice twist, novelty factor of that kind of dungeon wears off pretty quickly, and what you’re left with is content to do for the rewards, that is unoptimized with regards to how much time it costs you. And if you cut the rewards so that people dont feel force to go through it over and over again, it becomes tourist territory, you run it few times for the aesthetics and are done with it, while the company has sunk alot of money into creating it.
I get it that people like the concept of a decently built world to explore, but it doesnt necesarily fit well inside an mmo game that is about time metrics.
Hi mum, I’m famous!
I enjoy your threads OP. I also agree with everything you said. They keep shooting themselves in the foot for Esports and WF players. Which make up the best part of the top 1%.
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I’m still enjoyng M+ even i got 4 of 5 loots CAPES with lower ilvl from my current one 