while shadow is linear, it also offers different tactics and multiple playstyles. even the last boss can be played very differently depending on the class. Here you can achieve a lot with def skills…
I actually liked bfa dungeons. I could try quite a few things… and every dungeon was something special!
but df dugneons? absolute lousy crap! I don’t even want to know how you can design something so embarrassing…
all i can say about dragonflight blizzard should tone down the
Its rather too much and annoying.
vexxamus is the new tree boss. swirly you can barely see and mechanic overlap over 9000
Btw the American post is by someone who is 5/8 mythic and the ´´worst´´ dungeon they have is a 21 Jade Serpent.
Humanitydh - Character (worldofwarcraft.com)
This post PERFECTLY sums up why ppl liked M+. Just run in BLAST with big numbers and just have a good time. THAT IS WHAT MODERN WOW SHOULD ALWAYS HAVE BEEN ABOUT. For the record DH in BFA was also ridiculously easy to play, BUT WHO CARES. A needlessly more compex rotation is not more fun to play. Do you think guitar players only like to play the most difficult songs?
Casting CoS and Shadowbolt with a Warlock for 4k dmg (before they changed how negative spell resistance worked in WoW).
Being a Warrior and running in with MASSIVE Mortal Strike crits.
Huge Eviscerate and ambush crits.
This is the kinda stuff that felt good.
Did the current WoW developers even play the game pre-WoD? Feels like some of them didn´t even play it during Legion.
Of course as I already pointed out on this forum. The awful M+ class balance whilst focusing on e-sport and competitiveness is also a idiot combination. Most people have not figured out what specs are good yet in M+ (yes ppl who do above +16s have, but they are not most ppl). Once ppl do figure this out, have fun if u are playing a trash spec and tryign to push to 20s to get the best gear.
This is the entire reason why getting the best gear should always be somewhat easily obtainable (like doing +15s), because WoW will ALWAYS have awful class balance, so making the game too difficult will have disastrous consequences.
People make fun of the class balance in WoW Classic, but the truth is content is so easy you can bring 10 naked boomkins to MC and it won´t matter because you can clear the raid with 30 bad players anyways. Even BWL you can raid as an elemental Shaman, no problem, and this is good!! WoW is supposed to be a fun and social game, not a failed e-sports lobby game.
Who on earth designs DF dungeons?
BFA managed to launch 10 dungeons. Legion had an absurd amount of dungeons.
DF has launched 8, and somehow the quality is significantly worse?
But hey, not to worry, I am sure Ion is on a discord chat with some Echo members to discuss how to make the dungeons even worse for the nxt expansion.
The new dungeons are fine for me, even if they are harder than usual one, but for me the problem is that we have to do dungeons from Legion, Draenor and MOP… This is totally stupid from blizzard and all this thing travelling to old dungeons is annoying for me, so I dont have fun at all doing this dungeons. Pref to do the hard dungeons in DF than travelling to the others, despite CoS and Shadowmoon being the easiest dungeons. And beside there are more reasons to push higher keys than just rating, I still pref to go to raid, despite the fact getting item from raid is so unlikely
Different quotes from the American post I thought people would find interesting
This was their goal. The devs have been upset that m+ is more popular than raiding. Instead of making raiding more fun and rewarding they made m+ worse.
I’ve never had a worse time in my life in any game than I’ve had in M+ this season. The affixes are pure trash. In NO on volcanic week I had to hard move for either a swirly or volcanic every 1.4 seconds. I can’t even get a cast off. It’s beyond horrible.
Maybe Blizzard needs to relearn that its playerbase mostly enjoys easy content.
I knew I wasn’t crazy. Yall aren’t sick of this season already lmao? Because I am. These dungeons are garbage. Thundering is garbage. The valor cap is GARBAGE
Thundering is trash
I think that blizzard really tossed the bag with M+, all they had to do was make fun, big pull dungeons that are semi difficult, and everyone would’ve loved it. Think of the best dungeons, gambit for instance. Huge pulls, chill, fun single target fights, like we went from GAMBIT to ruby life pools lmao.
Worst part is. BLIZZARD SCREWED UP GAMBIT!! ALL THEY HAD TO DO, WAS NOT ADD AN IDIOTIC BANNER MECHANIC TO MURLOCS. THAT WAS ALL U HAD TO DO. POTENTIALLY ONE OF THE MOST FUN M+ AREAS OF ALL TIME. AND YET U HAD TO RUIN IT!! YOU JUST COULD NOT LET THE PLAYERS HAVE FUN.
there are some tricks to play it intime. i cant upgrade keys so easy. there is huge lottery with key dungeon + randoms. and finding a pug with high key is nearly impossible. and if i find people with gear and rating (lol here. there are tons no skill people who was carried hard) not everybody reads suggested tactic in chat, understand the language or dont wanna or cant do it.
but i can tank it on +15 with trash gear tank (around ilvl 365) and know how to avoid damage from trash and how to time hero right. but in my low keys like +16 with my causal geared tank people dont even know how to use los properly…
so yes. jade 20 and maybe even 21 would be possible intime with geared dps and skilled people.
but something like this only play with hard premade or in good guild. i was in top guild in legion/bfa etc too.
Having to learn all the mechanics and memorizing all the new routes for old dungeons every season this expansion as a tank isn’t fun either.
This is another problem. I dislike the dungeons, and the idea of ´´investing´´ my time into learning routes and mechanics of dungeons that I won´t play in 5 months seems crazy to me. At the moment I am basically making the calculations of how to put the least effort possible into m+ to get gear so I can pug heroic for AoTC. When you struggled with dungeons as a tank in the previous expansions, you at least understood that the stress / annoyance would pay off in the following seasons.
I also just wanna say that a lot of us predicted that M+ would suck this season.
That actually sounds like a cool idea. However, the execution could be tricky. Will these be soloable? 5-man like the normal Dungeons? What about rewards and incentives? Will it have puzzles? Traps? Or just adds and bosses? Will they have random generated content? If not people can just follow a guide and be done with it, which will ruin the experience. And if this will a group-content then you will be expected of you to read a guide either you like it or not.
There are so many things that can go wrong with this and I am not sure if Blizz is in a position where they want to add yet one more headache in their heads.
I hate M+ with a passion. This is a problem that has to do with how timed content like M+ works. Because on paper, more dungeon variety and the reuse of old dungeons is a good thing. It keeps things fresh. But M+ as a concept is so flawed that keeping things fresh is actually tiring. This is ridiculous on multiple levels.
Like they loved Warfronts? (not)
While I disagree with many of your points. Amen to that.
No no no I am dead 
Look at these rankings.
When Shadowmoon Burial gets an S and Halls gets an A then you know the DF dungeon design is absolutely atrocious.
As Towelliee correctly points out next season is going to be just as bad. Although personally I think it is going to be worse, because at least Ruby Life Pools is short and Algeth isn´t too long either.
Brackenhide is going to be a nightmare in M+ history, unless they just nerf the bejesus out of the entire thing. Although some mechanics are so annoying, that nerfs aren´t enough, they need to go for straight up mechanic removals.
Also I can´t even really blame whoever is designing these dungeons. At the end of the day, Ion is supposed to communicate to the company to create easy content. This is Ion failing yet again.
But I thought classic players wanted the game to be harder in the first place!!!
Love this clip and it is completely true.
The context is they are discussing BFA dungeons and Max and Dorki reach the conclusion that Kings Rest (which was considered one of the worst BFA dungeons) wouldn´t even be that bad if it was included in the current dungeon pool (because DF dungeons have been that bad).
Had to listen to all this crap about Shadowlands dungeons were good akhtually.
Finally BFA M+ IS GETTING THE RECOGNITION IT DESERVES. Like ppl trash talking BFA have no idea what they are talking about, obviously Legion was much better, but was still decent and the game actually had good aesthetics and music (no idea what Blizzard have done to their music but it blows currently).
Max´ vid generally has a lot of good M+ discussion between Growl and Dorki, who whilst they both have takes I disagree with, have great insight into M+, and seem to actually understand the casual playerbase.
Please don´t put me together with private server ppl.
You guys don’t know what you want!
problem with m+ and the same as problems with raiding.
its way to complicated and hard because its content tuned with only top 5% in mind.
its been 10 + years since raiding was enjoyable for normal casual players and same is now with m+
ridiculous change to please top 5% again .
just give up on this season - its unsalvagable.
my advise ? focus on leveling your alts to max level in hope that maybe S2 or S3 will be more enjoyable. this season is beyond saving at this point.
get your KSM and just stop doing m+ - its not good experience and its not worth it.
I would argue that Vault of Incarnates on normal mode is one of the most fun raids so far.
and do you know why ? because its really really easy .
thats why you find it fun.
its arguably easiest raid tier since first raid in Legion
They had really jumped the shark with the Anduin boss
yes. raiding used to be something special and was a chilled evening with friends. but now some raids are so brainless, I wonder what the point is. if the goal is to frustrate players with families and jobs, then the student devs have nailed it!
and some m+ are absolutely hardcore. after much more then 10x jade +18 runs I only managed 1x intime. how awkwardly designed is it? and the tactics were the same.
and the dungeons would need to be nerfed a lot harder. azure +16 is still not convenient to time in pugs. so total waste of time!
I used to time ruby +16 several times in pugs earlier. but that was also very close.
so playing at the moment is just a waste of time. there is anyway gear reset in s2. and I bet a real nerf for dungeons will come by then (and no clown show like the last patch yesterday). and all the stress and super toxic groups in pugs is not worth it!
what is much more likely m+ will continiue to be not nice experience untill S3 - when after hundreds of waves of nerfs those dungeons will be finaly playable
this happens when you rush product by half of year - you get unpolished garbage.
we all know real release should have happened untill like june 2023.