MDI is just ridicolous


#91

Even if you remove shroud, it’s a melee with great mobility and stealth, several cc without talenting it, magical immunity, interrupt, vanish, 30% heal over 6 second, they can open gates for tol dagor, can redirect threat to help with skittish and if talented, cheath death.

I’m a melee without aoe stun and aside from personal defensive, i’ve got nothing helpful to bring to the table. Be objective, if the rogue has a slightly overtuned toolkit, mine is non existent.


(Mojomane) #92

Ok, let’s compare them to DHs:

  • 10 y interrupt
  • ST stun if specced
  • Cage
  • Can also ress as engi???
  • Ok, no vanish(That is pretty much on CD as Assassin, cause it’s a major dmg cd)
  • Double Jump + vengefull retreat
  • AoE Stun + ST Stun
  • netherwalk for immunity or leach during meta and the 30% def cd on a 1 min CD
  • Netherwalk to soak
  • Thats a rogue dungeon tbh. You can still open doors as jeweler, blacksmith or inscription dude
  • Ok Tricks is dope, but not mandatory
  • Netherwalk to do chesee things
  • Blade Dance to chesee things
  • Darkness which is basically mandatory for bursting weeks
  • Purge on 8 sec CD

Looks like they’re overall just a melee CD without AoE stun tbh.

Yes, their kit seems to strong, but if you compare it to other melees, it’s just average, if you exclude shroud.


#93

It’s beautiful to see how for you “the other melees” are just DH.


(Mojomane) #94

You know what average means? It means there are some above and some below.

I’d argue rogue is above, monk and DH are pretty average and the rest is below.

Furthermore you’re listing all benefits for rogues and then downplay all benefits a ret can bring.

You have one of the strongest ST stuns, kick, bubble, can specc into AoE blind, can off heal, have one of the strongest aoe bursts, can give blessings, can rez and can taunt to help reset necrotic.


#95

I’m not downplaying, i’m being objective.

It’s either aoe blind, or hard cc, or a reliable stun for us. Not all of them.
Every melee has a short cd kick.
Bubble is the same of ice block, turtle etc. It’s not rare as it used to be and it’s not passive anymore like in legion. Oh, and it’s on the damn GCD.
Off heal is debatable: i can self heal but to heal other is either one shot on a 5 min cd if talented, or a decent heal that cost me lots of dps since burns hp (and a talent), or a crappy heal wich is a cast.
I can ress out of combat like every healer so useless.
I can taunt but it’s massively risky on an high key
My huge burst is a 2 min cd that normally requires me to bubble otherwise i’ll steal aggro and die, or to wait enough for the tank to build solid aggro and then half of my burst go to waste since everything is dead.
And please do not ever mention blessing because they’re a joke. Single target and nowhere near powerful as the buff from a mage/war/dk/monk buff.
Not to mention the fact that i have no mobility.


#96

no it isnt.
Even if you remove shroud, you can rogues have pull trash , rest of the group runs past, and the rogue vanishes
There are reasons why they are the most sought after and played class in High M+ keys

By the way, you compare rogue and DH, and lets say its about even WITHOUT SHROUD.
And now WITH SHROUD its “slightly overtuned”
Shroud is the ability why rogues are mandantory in every high key


#97

That pull can also be done by a hunter, all Night Elfs, mages should be able to do it with Invis heck, you can just take the 5sec and let a person die, and do it that way… those 5secs aren’t gonna make or break your key unless you do +23’s or above.

And if shroud is that big a factor, then buff invis pots… congrats, now everything is great in the world.


#98

Lets try to quantify shroud.
If there is a situation where yo ucould invis pot or shroud, and opt for the latter, what did you gain?
3 DPS who could have chucked about 3-5 Pots. so lets say 10 pots at least.
You can now add the DPS gained with pots to the rogue DPS
And do it again, if you used shroud a second time.

Now if you think anout a dozen pots or more dont make a difference … well sure you can play like that.
But dont tell me, shroud isnt a big factor


#99

most want mdi comp for ever dungen does not work for ever group :thinking:


(Dejarous) #100

Average does not mean some are above and some are below. Otherwise if there were one million classes, the second best class would be average because some are above and some below.

You can’t have one above, 2 average and then the other 8 below. By definition, te three top ones are above average.

Also, I think you lack objectivity.


#101

Some of the strongest AoE burst in the game.
Can cheese serval mechanics with blessing of protection.
Dispell roots on yourself and allies.
Soak with bubble
Strong ST stun
Dont forget the poison/disease dispell.
Do try to be objective please, saying you don’t bring anything to a group is just wrong, if you don’t know how to use it, that’s not on us.


#102

Problem is, that his utility plaes in comparison to rogue and DH.
he may use his toolkit as excessivly as he wants, but your points are stupid

Some of the strongest AoE burst in the game.
-his strongest burst is tied to a 2min CD. outside his singletarget is really mediocre at best. barely better than unholy

Can cheese serval mechanics with blessing of protection.
Soak with bubble
-so can you as DH with bladedance and felrush and netherwalk which also have a much shorter CD

Dispell roots on yourself and allies.
-while it has some uses in some dungeons, you can easily do without as MDI shows

-Strong ST stun
not much stronger than most other Singletarget stuns and YOU can have both

-Dont forget the poison/disease dispell.
nice but most healers can cover that and there few bosses where that has relevance

There is a reason why DH has one of the most representation in M+.
You are delusional if you think there is not a discrepancy in utility for M+


#103

Never said DH or rogue didn’t have more, i said it wasn’t true that he’d bring nothing.

If you actully look at the statistics. Overall there are more rets, than WW monks for example wich is considered the OP meta class, nvm the reason they’re there are mostly to buff the rogues dmg. There are more Rets than Unholy aswell.

It’s funny on how the comps change depending on what you’re doing isn’t it? If you wanna do a dungeon fast you bring 2xOL and WW, but if you actully want to do high keys, it’s very different. of the completed +25’s in time, there are as many rets as there is WW. Yes, that list is dominated by DH and Rogue and resto druids, but guess what, at that level, every advantage matters, no matter how small, so a leaderboard is always gonna look like that.

Ret is perfectly viable with it’s utility, are some other classes ahead, sure, but someone is always gonna be at the top and someone is always gonna be the buttom, poor warlocks :frowning:


#104

Unholy is garbage for Live M+ Pushing.
Live m+ is completly different from MDI and while you might find the occasinal 2 chest 20+ key in the LFG, those are exception to the rule, and I question how vaild those are.
The problem that most High end M+ pusher have, is that they have little choice when it comes to choosing their setup.
WW monks with high end raiding Gear and M+ score are simply more rare than rogues and DH. You can see that also in the raid logs for high end raiding.

And sure there are always some classes at the top, but it shouldnt be by such a large margin.
Changes that would be needed to rectify that is removing shroud and tricks of the trade from rogues.
Other things like adjusting damage of OL is in the works for 8.2

You call ret viable, and yes, it is viable. IAlthough I would really argue whether its “perfectly” viable, which I doubt.
Before you invite a ret, you make sure to have certain utilites in the group
Masstun, Bress

They are not desirable for M+, and thats the point.


(Peacemoon) #105

The biggest reason for this is trash. Too many interrupts needed meaning you need melee interrupts (or Shaman).

Too much trash in the dungeon when so little is required for 100% clear. Meaning you gain a lot by repeatedly using shroud from rogues.

Tricks of the Trade and Cloak of Shadows are just lovely extras. Not to mention sap and stuns.

I hate to call for a nerf to a particular class but if the dungeons weren’t built in such a way then you wouldn’t even need to nerf rogues.


(Dejarous) #106

“Strong stun”, a stun is a stun no?
What do people have to soak in dungeons? Oh, nothing.
What mechanics do people cheese with BoP?


#107

orc orc orc orc work work zug zug ?


#108

Mega Aoe burst: Our mega AOE burst is every 2 min, and most of the time half of it is wasted. We have to be sure to have it for reaping for maximum effect, and it’s either bubble and burst, or wait the tank to pick aggro and then burst, but at that point the mobs have already lost a good health % and therefore a big chunck of our burst is wasted.
And outside of wings, our damages isn’t that big.

Cheese mechanics with Bop: Which mechanics? It’s a phisical immunity, and there is hardly any dungeon where makes a difference. It’s a mistake saver at best in dungeon.

Dispel roots: which ones? I can’t remember any dungeon with roots to dispel.

Soak with bubbles: Soak what? there are no soaking mechanics in any dungeon, the only thing we can “soak” are mistakes, hardly a reason to bring a ret in the team

Strong ST stun: It’s a stun, just a bit longer than other classes. Hardly a reason to pick a ret, especially when a AOE stun or root is much more preferrable. The only place where it may makes a difference is to stop the mech jockey in ML

Dispel: common to other classes, it’s a dps loss to use it and it’s hardly used at all. The only places where i use it is in AD for volkal and in underrot on the third boss. And only if the healer can’t keep up, normally it’s not needed.

I am objective. None of what you said is mandatory or very helpful to a team compared to what other classes can offer.


#109

Never done high AD on tyranical have you? Its very helpful to clear spiders ect.
Oh whats, this, a boss in FH who does a whirlwind of phsyical dmg, imagine if we could have a melee dps despite that and beat the timer o.o
Oh goodness me, healer got rooted and is being charged by a matron in UR. My god, if only we could do something about that.
Again, i am not disputing that other classes bring more, but saying that you bring nothing is just plain wrong.


#110

A hunter can clear spiders with turtle as much as me, but he also bring misdirection for skittish, and heroism, and does not have to lose dps to drop the copy away from the boss.

And i’m sure that every FH keys is lost due to the 8 seconds of my bubble dps on the shark boss, because those are worth more than a portal skip with a lock to the last boss, or a shroud, or the higher dps other classes can make.

Again, i’m not saying ret has nothing, but in a 5 spot enviroment, there is nothing we can bring to the table that can grant us a spot over other classes. it’s a fact. And the same could be said for many other classes.