MDI is just ridicolous


(Mojomane) #81
  1. It’s just the first set of changes for the PTR, they will change more later on.

  2. Nerfing Protwarrior might result in a rise of BDKs again, which menas you already have a CR, therefore MW monk and other healers would become more popular again.


#82

Unless they give DK more str and armor, no.
DK will probably be bottom tier since DH changes look good.

Dont know about Druid, though


#83

MDI is performing on the edge, which will always have an optimal setup, especially in a fixed enviroment with static mobs and abilities. The only way to counter this is to make all the classes exactly the same, which will be tremendously boring imo.

And mythic is only one of several platforms for a class to perform. There’s also raiding and PVP all of which have different ideal setups for different scenario’s. Warlocks for example are on top of single tar DPS by a large marging but you don’t see them that often in high M+


#84

M+ is meh since streamers show to they rush xyz key with this 5 class. And now in this game if you dont play those classes, you insta flagged as pleb class and noone ever (most time) inv you. Thx m+ streamer guys, you all were very helpful


#85

It is anyways a true example how the M+ scene look today. You will never/seldom see people pushing asking for a ranged for their keys. Always 2 melee, and maybe a balance druid, just for safer play (never for dps since balance aoe sucks). The keys are just not doable with lack of interrupts and stuns. It is how Blizz made the dungeons now. Bad designchoises when you want diversety. They wanted to make it more interesting, but ended up making them unplayable. (For many many class-compesition and classes). After so long time they been up I find it very very strange they didnt change it totally already. It ends up it is not a balancing-problem, but the core design of the dungeons.


#86

So you are basically saying Rogues are fine? What a surprise coming from a ROGUE o.O

And NO, it’s NOT all about dps! If you truly believe that you don’t have much of an understanding. Outlaw Rogue is completely broken not only because of it’s high aoe dps but also because of it’s abundance of utility. They have several ways to interupt spells Kick, Gouge and stuns. They can also double-CC with Sap and Blind. They also have very good survivability with Cloak, Riposte and Vanish. Ohh and they also have a selfheal in Crimson Vial. I bet theres more then that, that I have forgotten.

Outlaw Rogue are broken for Mythic+ end of story. Theres a reason groups take TWO of them all the time.


(Mojomane) #87

Where did i say rogues are fine? Their utility kit is slightly overtuned and the DPS that outlaw can deal is way overtuned and will be nerfed signifiantly in 8.2.

Yes, because they can pull 5k+ more overall dps than any other class/specc in the game atm…

All the utility in the world doesn’t really change what you bring to the MDI. How come noone is bringing balance druids anymore even though they have one of the best utilities in the game?

Why do most groups don’t bring DHs anymore, even though they provide more utility than monks? Might be because the monks can buff the outlaw and warri dps by 5%, which is basically all that matters in MDI. Do more DPS, do pulls 2 secs faster than the enemies, win game.

Even if rogue had none of the ulities you described, as long as outlaw pulls 5k+ more dps than other classes, it will be brought to the MDI.
Outside of shroud nothing is really special, other classes bring simmilar amounts of ulility.

As mentioned before, UHDK isn’t brought because of their ultility. They just do mongo dps if you can pull big enough. (We have seen over 1m DPS from UHDKs this season)


#88

I genuinely fall of my chair at this.


(Mojomane) #89

Okay, be objective, outside of shroud, what’s special about rogues?

Remove shroud and now they’re just a melee without an AoE-Stun, that currently does way to much AoE DPS(In regards to outlaw).


#90

-melee interrupt, another as assassin
-real CC with sap. no aggro, no combat, no explosive, cant be dispelled, cant be bolstered
-another CC with blind to interrupt and to CC
-stealth, he can ress as engineer
-vanish to sidepull and deaggro
-Speed CD to sqush maggots
-Stun
-Melee interrupt and another one as Assa
-good survivability
-Cloak to soak
-open locks in Tol dagor, in fact almost mandatory for Tol Dagor
-Tricks for skittish or tol dagor
-cheat death do chesse things

Did I forget something ? Probably


#91

Even if you remove shroud, it’s a melee with great mobility and stealth, several cc without talenting it, magical immunity, interrupt, vanish, 30% heal over 6 second, they can open gates for tol dagor, can redirect threat to help with skittish and if talented, cheath death.

I’m a melee without aoe stun and aside from personal defensive, i’ve got nothing helpful to bring to the table. Be objective, if the rogue has a slightly overtuned toolkit, mine is non existent.


(Mojomane) #92

Ok, let’s compare them to DHs:

  • 10 y interrupt
  • ST stun if specced
  • Cage
  • Can also ress as engi???
  • Ok, no vanish(That is pretty much on CD as Assassin, cause it’s a major dmg cd)
  • Double Jump + vengefull retreat
  • AoE Stun + ST Stun
  • netherwalk for immunity or leach during meta and the 30% def cd on a 1 min CD
  • Netherwalk to soak
  • Thats a rogue dungeon tbh. You can still open doors as jeweler, blacksmith or inscription dude
  • Ok Tricks is dope, but not mandatory
  • Netherwalk to do chesee things
  • Blade Dance to chesee things
  • Darkness which is basically mandatory for bursting weeks
  • Purge on 8 sec CD

Looks like they’re overall just a melee CD without AoE stun tbh.

Yes, their kit seems to strong, but if you compare it to other melees, it’s just average, if you exclude shroud.


#93

It’s beautiful to see how for you “the other melees” are just DH.


(Mojomane) #94

You know what average means? It means there are some above and some below.

I’d argue rogue is above, monk and DH are pretty average and the rest is below.

Furthermore you’re listing all benefits for rogues and then downplay all benefits a ret can bring.

You have one of the strongest ST stuns, kick, bubble, can specc into AoE blind, can off heal, have one of the strongest aoe bursts, can give blessings, can rez and can taunt to help reset necrotic.


#95

I’m not downplaying, i’m being objective.

It’s either aoe blind, or hard cc, or a reliable stun for us. Not all of them.
Every melee has a short cd kick.
Bubble is the same of ice block, turtle etc. It’s not rare as it used to be and it’s not passive anymore like in legion. Oh, and it’s on the damn GCD.
Off heal is debatable: i can self heal but to heal other is either one shot on a 5 min cd if talented, or a decent heal that cost me lots of dps since burns hp (and a talent), or a crappy heal wich is a cast.
I can ress out of combat like every healer so useless.
I can taunt but it’s massively risky on an high key
My huge burst is a 2 min cd that normally requires me to bubble otherwise i’ll steal aggro and die, or to wait enough for the tank to build solid aggro and then half of my burst go to waste since everything is dead.
And please do not ever mention blessing because they’re a joke. Single target and nowhere near powerful as the buff from a mage/war/dk/monk buff.
Not to mention the fact that i have no mobility.


#96

no it isnt.
Even if you remove shroud, you can rogues have pull trash , rest of the group runs past, and the rogue vanishes
There are reasons why they are the most sought after and played class in High M+ keys

By the way, you compare rogue and DH, and lets say its about even WITHOUT SHROUD.
And now WITH SHROUD its “slightly overtuned”
Shroud is the ability why rogues are mandantory in every high key


#97

That pull can also be done by a hunter, all Night Elfs, mages should be able to do it with Invis heck, you can just take the 5sec and let a person die, and do it that way… those 5secs aren’t gonna make or break your key unless you do +23’s or above.

And if shroud is that big a factor, then buff invis pots… congrats, now everything is great in the world.


#98

Lets try to quantify shroud.
If there is a situation where yo ucould invis pot or shroud, and opt for the latter, what did you gain?
3 DPS who could have chucked about 3-5 Pots. so lets say 10 pots at least.
You can now add the DPS gained with pots to the rogue DPS
And do it again, if you used shroud a second time.

Now if you think anout a dozen pots or more dont make a difference … well sure you can play like that.
But dont tell me, shroud isnt a big factor


#99

most want mdi comp for ever dungen does not work for ever group :thinking:


(Dejarous) #100

Average does not mean some are above and some are below. Otherwise if there were one million classes, the second best class would be average because some are above and some below.

You can’t have one above, 2 average and then the other 8 below. By definition, te three top ones are above average.

Also, I think you lack objectivity.