I can not decide witch one is better, In the Rhythm or Surging Shots. I know every meta build recommand the first one but im not really sure about it.
I farmed freehold yesterday, and I thought about this based on the details numbers, Im still using Surging Shots, cuz most of my gear is S1, but the point is with Surging Shots aimed and rapid fire deals almost equal damage, on a freehold run.
I understand why they want to force In the Rhythm, but in practice, where you have to move a lot, on M+, isn’t more/stronger rapid fire better?
Let’s look at the numbers, +15 freehold (i know its not big, but im 425) 142k total, aimed shot 25,3M, Rapid Fire 24,9M damage.
35% of 25M is roughly 8,7M, and this does not even include the CD reset procs.
In the Rhythm helps to get more RNG procs but Surging Shots damage bonus is fix.
What do you think about this?
I think its not worth thinking about since MM is not tuned correctly, and blizzard are to incompetent to correct MM’s numbers “correctly” going on 9 months they been robbing me of my money and calling it fair.
What is your problem with it exactly? Because i have no problem with the numbers. Its Bull**** that hunter can not do a good dps. I dont really like this rng proc related rotation on mm but the numbers are just fine.
Why is Blizzard struggling?
“We have observed labor shortages, increasing competition for talent, and increasing attrition. We are experiencing increased difficulty in attracting and retaining skilled personnel,” said the company. "For example, we observed a significantly higher turnover rate of our human resources function in 2021.
Thats googles take.
So cuz their employees cant do math, so hunter class numbers way underpreform, both offensively AND defensively, yet they keep tweaking the numbers, and failing in reaching any sort of balanace or fairness or even competitiveness
You use very dramatic expressions. Not perfect but never was, but dragonflight is definitely better than the last two expansions.
No one is forcing you to pay, you can cancel your sub anytime.
I agree that there are problems, but this DOOMER mentality is just nonsense.
Their employees can do math, and to add here, even if they couldnt itd be 0 problem, ur aware the very pc they work on can answer any mathmatical question right.
Allow me to tell yoy a secret.
During a interview in legion, Ion admitted they to a extent control the meta, by basically buffing classes to a level and nerfing others down, this is to basically keep meta cycling rather then landing in a stand still.
During SL Ion also stated while he will attempt the reduce the dps differences of classes, he had no intention moving any class up or down the toten pole in regards to strength over a season to prevent players feeling as if they wasted their time on their meta choices.
So the concept uve been lied to when every piece of evidence from a devs mouth has basically said “if u start bad ur prolly remaining bad” is false and misinformed at best.
Offensive dps of hunter isnt the problem. Hunters a mid pack dps and very capable of competing in dps with other options.
Defensive wise, u could consider us abit light, but we do have a complete immunity which is something lots of classes dont have to hand, but sure our DR uptime is tiny compared to multiple options.
Look at the meta choices.
The disparity is in utility, we bring no unique buff, we bring potientally BL. Which is something so spread now it dont really count anymore. Espically with aug evoker being meta.
Every group is already set up to not need any utility you provide.
A +25, which is where u proclaim to be has never faciliated every class, theres always been classes completely declined based on this. It strikes me the only reason ur mad is bexause ur class isnt meta. Not balance.
If balance was ur issue with the game, youd have quit 2 decades ago. Hunters just arent garunteed meta anymore which is ur real issue.
Yep, which is why specs get nudged in a direction rather than massively buffed or massively nerfed.
I do disagree with this though. The meta is mainly just decided by what does the most damage. Damage is by far the most important thing when it comes to ‘what’s meta’ and we can see this by the fact survival was considered meta because of it’s damage in SL s4, despite having exactly the same utility as it does right now. Obviously having some utility helps, but they are bonuses rather than the main factor.
While true i feel mass dispel is a big part of why shadows become so mandatory, and augs basically down to how much dps it provides others.
Mage however sure taken strictly for its dps.
If it does crazy dps alike demo lock and survival hunter in SL S3/4 yeah it also can play a rly big part of why it becomes meta.
However shadow priest having PI and mass dispell, basically means even if its balanced number wise with other classes its still gonna be the meta choice.
I think strong utility leads to more consistently meta in a balanced state, like locks in raids, u can make the class as bad as u like, every rsid will try get one though.
Hunters depend massively on being a top performing dps to be meta however
Its great that the topic evolved xD but what are you think about the main question In the Rhythm vs Surging Shots. For me Surging Shots looks better, for m+.
Basically all of this shows it is the main factor though. ‘PI’ would count as the priests damage, so it’s basically just mass dispel. If some other spec did 10-15% more damage than SP or whatever it would get taken over it. People would just find a way around the lack of a mass dispel.
I mean yeah I completely agree with all of this. I just think when it comes to m+ people talk a ton about utility/defensives etc, but in reality the meta is decided by what does the most damage essentially every tier. Added utility and such on that are just bonuses rather than the deciding factor.
My opinion would be whatever the sim suggests. I’ll log in and check how big the difference is.
Edit:
So in our m+ build,
On single target, the difference is 3% damage in favour of ITR, which for one single talent point is absolutely massive.
On 5 targets (Not really representative of m+, but more of just AoE in general), the difference is 2.2% in favour of ITR. Again, this is pretty huge for a single point.
They just aren’t even close really. Any time you spend rapid firing it means you are not casting aimed, which is just everything with Windrunners Guidance. Haste from ITR feedback loops > More aimed > more trueshot > more aimed/ITR uptime, etc.
Ok, but I think this talent is a topic that the sim cannot accurately calculate.
If we assume that no movement comes in the way, you can shoot your aimed completely calmly, then it is obviously true.
But in reality there is quite a lot of movement, and the other talent comes with a lot more rapid fire besides trueshot.
+surging is a fixed damage increase, the other one is helping to get more RNG…
So firstly, ITR is a fixed-ish damage increase, 12% haste is going to mean shorter aimed CD, more casts during CDs etc, so proccing more TS is just one aspect of it.
Secondly, there really isn’t that much unplanned forced movement in m+. You still only spend ~27% of the time casting aimed shots on AoE, and have more than enough things to press whilst moving. Also bare in mind that with ITR, you are going to have an easier time finishing the aimed casts with a shorter cast time.
I don’t think any amount of movement could ever make up for a big of a gap that 3% is, honestly.
Idk i had more Total dps with Surging, +its more fun then the full aimed shot centric ItR.
Basically, I think these 1-2% dps things don’t come out the same in reality as in the sim,
maybe a sim is right if you push a mechanical 100% uptime perfect run, but in reality, for example, on a pull it is also a DPS loss if you have to use Turtle or interrupt an aimed shot because of something.
This is comparing a million factors in that run. RNG, pulls, buffs/debuffs, speed of key, etc etc. When it comes to the sim, the only factor that changes is the talent - it can perfectly isolate exactly the value on that one talent.
If you find it more fun, then play it 
It’s a game afterall.
To put it into perspective, surging shots is worth less than half the value of ITR. This also rests on your idea that surging is less likely to mess up, which i’m not even sure is true. Even if it was, you’d have to mess up an unbelievable amount for them to even come close.
I know it looks daunting losing so much rapid fire damage - but that’s because ITR value is just harder to see. Remember, because of more haste the value of almost everything else creeps up too (Aimed, multi, steady, arcane, etc). Not just because of the haste, but because you spend significantly less time casting rapid fire too.
Also, the movement difference is basically negligible. With surging, you stand still to cast aimed shot ~ 24% of the time. With ITR, that’s ~26% of the time.
that be true haha, survival hunter in SL Seasons showed that raw damage is defintly more then enough to get u into a Meta spot in M+ haha
Sure meta is about dps, But meta metters on higher levels 25+, below usually you can find only a bunch of idiots. And Utility is good, bad dps is still better than dead dps. Thats why i like to play with ret, i can save their ***.
At lower levels, people who want to get a boost usually want to stick to the meta team, those who dont even know dungeon mechanics. this is my experience, they die in everything and then when the key breaks they cry that the team was the bad one.
So meta team is not a life insurance either, cuz many idiots forcing to play with ‘‘meta’’ characters witch they have no idea about.
True haha.
Only thing im curious about atm is tomorrows hunter buffs, and if survival will remain the better specc in m+
Yep. MM will still be the worst m+ spec by a decent amount, with SV still being the strongest.
Ah guess i wint need to farm a ranged weapon again yet,