Mythic+ Needs Better Social Systems, Not Just More (fake) Punishments

Community General Discussion
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I apologize in advance for this long and boring stream of thoughts, but I needed to write down some ideas (which in a perfect world could be read by the devs and maybe implemented)

I’ve been playing Mythic+ for years, and I became totally addicted to this system but as the years go by the more frustrating and toxic it becomes and the problem isn’t the dungeons themselves, the problem is everything that happens before you even step inside one.

The recent Deserter debuff is a good example: I understand why it was added, but I don’t think it fixes the real issue. It only punishes people after a run has already fallen apart. It doesn’t make grouping any healthier or less frustrating.

I think one of the biggest problems is still the community’s obsession with tier lists.
Whether we like it or not, people judge you by your spec before they judge you by your skill and if you’re playing something that isn’t considered meta, you can spend 30 minutes (or even longer) just trying to get invited, even if you’re more than capable of timing the key; that doesn’t feel good, and I don’t think it’s healthy for the game (and for the people who love push keys).

Below I’ll write down some ideas that would be nice to see introduced (or even considered for future updates).

P.S. I know these are just frivolous ideas, but writing them here somehow makes them more real.

1) Give us an optional matchmaking system

I’m not asking Blizzard to remove premade groups, keep them exactly as they are… but why not give us another option?

An optional matchmaking queue could build groups based on role, Mythic+ rating, dungeon experience, and maybe even previous performance. Sometimes I just want to log in, queue up, and play instead of refreshing the Group Finder for half an hour hoping someone finally accepts me.

  1. Rating shouldn’t be the only thing that matters

Right now, Mythic+ rating tells you what keys someone has completed, it doesn’t really tell you how they played. Blizzard already collects a huge amount of combat data during every dungeon, so why not use some of it?

Things like:

  • Did the player use their defensive cooldowns during unavoidable damage?

  • Did they interrupt dangerous casts?

  • Did they avoid mechanics?

  • Did they use their utility?

  • Did they actually contribute to making the run smoother?

I’m not saying this should replace Mythic+ rating… I’m saying it could complement it!!

  1. Add a Role Proficiency system

Something else I’d love to see is a Role Proficiency score for each specialization (not based on damage meters, but on consistency and performance).

If someone has completed dozens of keys while regularly using defensives properly, handling mechanics, interrupting casts, and helping the group with utility, that should mean something, right now it’s impossible to tell the difference between someone who genuinely mastered their class and someone who simply got carried through high keys.

A system like this would help reward good players instead of just rewarding completed runs.

  1. Give players feedback they can actually learn from

Another feature I’d really enjoy is a post-dungeon Performance Report, not another damage meter: an actual breakdown that helps you improve.

Imagine finishing a key and seeing something like:

  • You interrupted 18 important casts.

  • You avoided 94% of avoidable damage.

  • You only used 2 out of 6 available defensive cooldowns.

  • You died twice without using a defensive.

  • Here’s where you could improve next run.

Players already use Warcraft Logs and other third-party tools because they want this information, why not build a simplified version directly into the game? It would help newer players improve and give experienced players useful feedback without needing external websites.

  1. Reward good teammates

I also think the game could use a super simple commendation system and after finishing a dungeon let players commend teammates for things like:

  • Great leadership.

  • Friendly attitude.

  • Good communication.

  • Excellent mechanics.

  • Being genuinely helpful.

Positive reinforcement usually works better than more punishments.

Sorry for long post - my final thought

Too much of the experience depends on external websites, tier lists, and community perception instead of what players actually do inside the dungeon, I don’t want Mythic+ to become easier I want Mythic+ to become more accessible!

I just want the game to do a better job of recognizing player skill instead of leaving everything in the hands of third-party tools and public opinion.

I think changes like these would make Mythic+ healthier for everyone (from casual players doing weekly keys to people pushing the highest levels)

…and sorry for the bad English, it’s not my main language!

3 Likes
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I am not a fan of those metrics because it just makes people greed on stuff instead of doing what they need to. I have been in plenty of groups where we call or assign interrupts, then someone takes yours. This is just begging for people to take what they shouldn’t because they need to be good on the metric. Wasting your utility or defensives because you simply need it to clock up and count for score.

It’s the same issue in fights like Rotmire M where people are told they will be removed if they don’t do enough dps, then when the adds spawn and everyone blows them up before they’ve moved to the right position it frequently wipes groups.

Someone made an attempt at an addon like that, I have no idea if it’s still going. It sounds as annoying as that spammy addon some healers used at one point to call out who took damage, spamming chat constantly. The ones that just had a summary at the end were less annoying but still out of context info is out of context.

I appreciate you feel different and I don’t know what level you play at. I just push to 3.4k for my mount and I’m pretty much done, it’s back to weekly keys for as long as I need and then stop until next season. I probably wouldn’t even have bothered to go to 3.4 if it wasn’t for the mount being added.

This might be something high key pushers would enjoy or find useful. I don’t think low groups would appreciate it and it will only create more toxicity. There is enough for people to rage at each other about in pug content without adding this in the mix. I certainly don’t want to see this data in the guild keys we do, keys with friends, weekly pugs etc.

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One of the most well-argued posts regarding the possibility of improving the WoW player experience.

As things stand, the game has completely lost that sense of connection to one’s character and class.

Nowadays, you are basically forced to play a META class because it’s almost impossible to prove that your mastery of an off-meta class is enough to compensate for, or even outperform, the average META player.

Having access to crucial dungeon performance data could allow players to consider building ‘break the meta’ groups, which would turn out much better than a team made up of the usual quintet of S-tier classes.

I really hope Blizzard takes your feedback on board.

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If you’re only playing up to 3400 RIO, you honestly don’t even have the context to understand the arguments in this post.

For more and more players nowadays, the game is all about pushing throughout the entire season, and this is essentially being blocked by the current state of affairs.

These changes wouldn’t have the slightest impact on casual players who have no interest in pushing.

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As I said:-

This isn’t some system being proposed for the smallest percentage of M+ players who push high (at least +20 or higher and people are currently timing +25s at the highest level). It would affect all M+ players and have a negative impact.

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Technically this would be especially beneficial for players who play at low ranks.
Having metrics that encourage you to improve at the end of the dungeon based on actions you can perform in the game gives you the basis to understand how your character works and how to avoid being a burden to the group.

The idea is to “improve by doing things that in low level keys people usually avoid”.
You will never waste a personal def if it saves you from death (and also help to reduce the pressure on the healer).

This is obviously toxic and misleading behavior (also dictated by people’s inability to manage the situation, both on the part of those who say these things and on the part of those who don’t understand that they must do both). However, the indications should come from the system, not from other players.

I’m pushing 1% with main and i usually do 3k with alts so i play in both side of the field.
I also trying to help guildmates and other friends to find group because they don’t play meta classes and the things are really frustrating! If you have 3.8k rio they will still prefer someone who is a “meta” class all things being equal or if you have more rio they will take someone with more gear. At this point, having to fight between RIO, meta and gear score, it is better to centralize the choice on an objective and calculable criterion by the system that really indicates how a player plays his class (which sometimes goes beyond the context of the rio or gear).

I really don’t understand how it could create more toxicity

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The average person is not going to take anything away from those stats at the end. I’m talking the casual player base that are dipping their toe in or not really seriously pushing.

Even in pugs where they require logs they frequently rage at each other over their log score and try to invalidate whatever the other is saying, even if it’s helpful.

People already complain about sitting in queue simulator for keys and this would add to that burden. It’s not going to help anyone. It will make groups more and more picky, something I can understand higher up. It’s bad enough in a +6 when someone thinks they need a meta team to be able to complete the run.

So by all means if the system didn’t kick in until 1% territory, or something actually high where the data may be more relevant, then great.

Best of luck with your suggestion and I hope you make your score target :four_leaf_clover:

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I think this is good idea if I understand it correctly. People at low rating would learn where to press defensives (or to press them at all), that kicks are important. If they don’t do so they should still get “normal” rating. Just not as much as if they “parsed better”.

This would help people to learn their class, the game mechanics and to actually become competitive going ingo competitive keys.

Some might find this toxic: Issue nowadays is gray parsers in 15 or so think they are entitled to 1% mount. What you suggested pretty much could help them get tiny bit of score up.

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This is exactly the point: having these metrics in the system allows you to implement matchmaking where you don’t choose based on the tier list created by the famous streamer or “that guy has 2 more points than Rio, he’s better than that other guy.” Everything is matchmaking. Everything. Then maybe you can choose not to start the run, but at least the group will form more quickly (and if after three times you give up on starting the group, you get a penalty like deserter).

Thanks <3.
I hope things will change (in a way or another)

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Why would anyone think they are entitled to the 1% mount, that is ridiculous.

There are all sorts of mounts (and other cosmetics) in the game that require high skill to get. There are always going to be things out of reach for some players. It’s not like there aren’t a huge number of collectibles available.

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This was the main point of my idea.

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I see tons of comments and topics about it, wowhead comments, reddit posts, FB comments, how it’s unfair they lock mounts behind 1% cutoff. That’s what i meant.

I agree and I usually respond with the same response. Over 1k mounts and only a couple of them are “hard” and unobtainable.

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dont’ worry, with such metrics, the defensiv will be use, and clearly not only when there are death risk

and for toxicity : those information will spawn in chat or anything, so addon will be able to gather this information

Next step : i accept in my party only people with this addon

Next step : i look at information in addon, and filtrate on this base.

yay

In 20 years of wow (little more now) i saw lot of silly ways community use to do selections, giving another tool for such behaviour is… not a good idea… at all

3 Likes
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That’s a Blizzard fault tbh.
They could keep api data private so only blizzard can manipulate and show data

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i am in favor for freedom for addon, so disagree.
I think it is a strong point blizzard has.
And i find they did a really bad move doing the DPS meter inside the game; not because the current one is bad, but simply because it is a thing the community could hanbdle without real effort.

But more : in any game i went, people did all they could to bypass what game allow to have thing in their favor, even more to “chose their teammate”.

In any game
You don’t want players to abuse and do bad use of your tool ? be sure there are no way to do it
if there is one way, even some hard to do, it will be used.

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Ahahahahahaha, no. They couldnt since Legion, what makes you think a “proper” rating system would magically change the lobotomized monkeys?

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Almost any “tool” can be abused, misinterpreted and etc. You cant put “kid-save” gloves on everything without making the tool useless in the process. Your basic DPS meter, which is a valuable tool for any DPS who care for their performance yet some people can use it to be toxic towards somebody else. Even in rlife. A brick, valuable material in construction yet somebody can use it to cause bodily harm to somebody else…if not worse so..should we ban all bricks then?

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all : clearly no
but adding always more tool for toxicity, and even more… the balance between benefits, and misuse… and for such thing we have here… I don’t think benefits will be real, while misuse .. .is promsing

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While the debate about how the tool would actually work and what parameters it would check…is a different topic.

But for the sake of the argument if such tool existed. It would actually help the pug scene in higher level keys(aka 18,19, 20s and above) because in 20 range at least, people no longer look at just your class and rio alone but actually go through your m+ logs since you can have “good rio” and appear “qualified” on paper..only to mess up the most basic "dont stand in :poop: " mechanics.

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Definitely not a fully AI-generated promotional post from classic character for AI-generated OP’s post :slightly_smiling_face:

Here it is in game:
Step 1. List your own key
Step 2. Filter people who apply to your key based on your assumptions how this matchmaking system should work
Step 3. Accept them

You can also check recent Tettles’ video on Youtube for such kind of experience (not an AD! :slightly_smiling_face:)

External sites like WCL allows to understand the context of each situation and decision, simplified system won’t give such context. Context matters a lot.

Goodhart’s law explains why such systems don’t work. You can read about it in Wiki.