How so? You’d stand to lose, covenants, legos, tier, conduits in SL once we go to DF since those were borrowed powers.
But why the hell would I want them back as separate choices when I currently have them included already???
In what world is that a better thing???
As demonstrated in the examples several times above by not just me, but that DK player and the druid player, you are objectively forced to choose stuff that you currently have baseline, and because of their placement in the tree, you simply can’t and won’t be able to have all of them.
How is it common sense? If it was, everyone would be agreeing to it, but since we aren’t, it’s not so common is it?
I’m fine with things at the start of the tree being the foundations to choose from- But if you only have one path to start from (e.g. frost strike), then that’s not an option at all! Worse, they are forcing you to pick your baseline kit up, when it should be, word on word, baseline.
A better alternative would be to have like two or three choices right at the start, which all lead to different paths. Think of the class talent tree one, but instead of starting with core baseline abilities, you’d start it with some of the aforementioned examples. Something new, something fresh.
Because it is lazy and it is lying. They’re selling you 100% of the talent tree as choices, when the truth of it is that a major part of it, depending on the class and spec, is already made for you.
A more accurate message would have been “you’re going to spend x% amount of the tree building your baseline class as we want you to, and the rest is available for your own choices”.
But that’d not be nearly as cool + hype to say. But that would have been truthful.
Aye, exactly.
So why have baseline stuff as choices at all?
Yes, that is my point.
It’s not that you have to advance the talent tree from bottom to top or vice versa. That is not the issue.
The issue is that in order to even get started, you are sacrificing points on abilities you already have as baseline to your class. And you are trying to sell it to people as if that’s alright, when it is not.
Its the same as if in vanilla they forced you to pick say heroic strike from the start of talent tree, build it into slam, etc. That’d been extremely degenerate, and there’s a reason they are not built that way.
But you said previously that you do not care about balance? Would you like me to quote you on that?
Thats not how it should be.
Yes, only that you are advertising it as a positive feature of this talent tree.
I don’t necessarily think its a problem if people always pick the same stuff- As has been well demonstrated, people will just download a build and use that.
The problem is that, regardless of the person you pick, they are consistently picking these same paths and routes because why the hell wouldn’t they, they are just way better and as a result things that they currently have baseline are no longer baseline.
Yes, but that doesn’t change the fact that he did pick it the same way in all four takes. If I showed those pictures to a hundred people on the street and asked them to tell the difference, they probably couldn’t.
We have already demonstrated this in the examples above.
Because, as per blizzard:
Our goal is for a Dragonflight character to feel like it has a similar amount of power and complexity—which can be hard to quantify—as a Shadowlands character.
They’re heavily reducing the amount of power when they pit flourish verdant infusion against each other.
You will definitely not feel like you have a similar amount of power when you lose what you currently have.
Why is it a bad thing though? It changes things up.
You aren’t forced to chose anything, you should fill the tree with your available points though.
And no, you can’t have everything you had, it’s a new expansion, things change.
That’s how trees work… you start from the roots.
I agree with this, they should put different starting points for the specs and have you chose between them.
Versus the class that is already made for you?
It’s more freedom than you currently have.
That’s what they said though?
“Our hope is that every spec can play in a somewhat traditional manner where it fills out the complete path laid out for it in the core tree and then picks up a choice of miscellaneous utility, or a more customized manner where it reaches deeper into the other specs’ paths.”
Here: https://www.wowhead.com/news/druid-dragonflight-talent-preview-for-all-specs-327267
Whatever they put in those roots, you’d say: but it should be baseline since it’s unavoidable.
You’re not “sacrificing points” you’re spending them.
If they put 5 of those “mandatory” abilities and shortened the trees and the amount of points, it would be the same thing, except you wouldn’t be able to not pick some of them.
I don’t care about shifting stuff adding abilities, ruffling the feathers and all that, because everything is already unbalanced and they’ll tune as much as they want later, it doesn’t mean they’d tune everything right.
And it’s irrelevant to what i said about balance, i’m talking about what would happen.
I’m saying the snake is venomous, i didn’t make it venomous though.
Having the freedom to chose more than on live is a positive feature.
And why is that? Because some abilities are better than others, some in the eyes of others, some objectively.
What could Blizzard do except tune them?
Anything and everything they put into the trees, they put them against others. No matter what they do there will be an ideal path and a wanted path.
Maybe i’m remembering wrong, but some of the abilities were different, else logically he wouldn’t share multiple trees…
List, where is the list?
Using this: LINKED TREE
I am gaining:
A
B
F
G
I am losing
D
R
G
V
That’s the only way to prove that the new trees, as they are now in the first iteration, are not good.
That’s the best way to let them know what they should change about the trees and they will be changing them throughout development.
Yes, similar amount of power, that means it doesn’t matter what abilities you have in the end as long as your power is similar.
And that’s the goal with the new trees.
If they went the route of usual > new expac > borrowed powers gone > some powers integrated > some lost > you’d end up with a lot more of what you have now, gone.
And in this case, you’d have lost Verdant Infusion unless they made it baseline or in the tree in place of a talent, maybe even in place of Flourish.
You won’t have a similar amount of power. Nothing in the talent tree makes up for the power loss in this scenario;
Tank has hots, starts taking some damage and then the party is taking damage too while they have some rejuvs up. You throw CW on the tank, then you swiftmend him to extend the hot durations and then you cast a sotf wild growth and flourish.
There’s nothing added in the tree that gets anywhere close to this in terms of power. They take away what you have, you are objectively weaker with this new talent tree.
Are you intentionally trying to be funny?
Why should I accept that “Hybernate” is gone?
Why should I accept that Cyclone is something I will be forced to not pick in most competitive PvP scenarios?
Why should I accept that things I had for free (borrowed power) is now something competing for points against talents that are (were) mandatory - making me lose one or or the other?
I couldn’t give two craps about you thinking it’s fine because “it’s not used in PvE”. If it’s not used in PvE then it may as well be baselined and you can forget about it. Nonsense.
I already knew you were unable to grasp the concept of false choice, but are you acting like this intentionally?
Or do you seriously think a Cyclone build is going to be BiS against a meleecleave training you down?
No, I’ll just be forced to not pick Cyclone and pick the easier-to-use and more effective options instead, even if they’re less fun, less skillful and add less depth.
4 points just to get Cyclone is almost never going to be worth it, even 1 point on its own will oftentimes not be worth it.
You really, really, really, don’t get it do you? There is no choice.
I’ll be forced to pick Bear defensives (some of which I have for free with borrowed power already now) and Nature’s Vigil + Innervate.
I couldn’t care less that you think “change” is good. What kind of a person thinks change for the sake of change is good? Wow.
No… jesus christ. The core ability is the same as it’s been since Legion. It’s just that all the “free” stuff we got through borrowed power for free, have now been made into talents that now have to be weighed against other talents and things that used to be baseline.
Because it is pruning and this game is pruned enough already.
How can you possibly be this lost?
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So what you’re saying is that Flourish is that far ahead of Germination and Photosynthesis?
Because you can get Flourish OR Verdant and you can get BOTH Germination and Photosynthesis at the same time.
So instead of having 1 row 7 talent and a lego, you can have 2 lvl 7 row and 1 lego OR 3 lvl 7 rows.
Germination and photosynthesis are nothing compared to flourish + verdant infusion.
Germination is awful either way. I’d never go for photosynthesis above having convoke, either.
You can get it if you want, but you’d give up the good stuff.
Classes/specs might lose abilities between expacs, it’s the way it’s always been, things change.
You can pick it in PVP scenarios… you definitely can.
Because it was BORROWED POWER.
That’s why it’s called borrowed power, because you’d lose it at the end.
This time they put them in as a choice to get them if you want.
It’s about having choices, i’m sorry you can’t get everything in the bloody tree, did you want 60 points to cover everything?
You can click on the loadout interface to load something more suitable to go against that meleecleave.
But there is a choice… you can chose what you get. Why are you lying?
You mean you have borrowed now some of them, right? You can pick what you think you need.
That core ability says something else when i hover over my druid, than is in the new tree.
It says it restores 50 energy and increases dmg by 19%.
In the new tree it says increases energy by 20 and dmg by 15% and then you have improved which is 30 more energy.
If you spend those 4 points it’ll be 50 energy and 15% dmg, it’s a straight up 4% dmg nerf… not to mention you probably won’t put 3 points in that, just 1, and end up with 30 energy and 15% dmg.
Which is a straight up nerf.
So what are you losing once you fill up the tree how you want?
And what are you gaining?
You’re comparing 1 and 2 versus 3 + lego here… you should be comparing 3 + lego versus 1 + 2 + 3 or 1 + 2 + lego, because that’s what options you have. And like you said, you can go Convoke instead of 1 or 2, another borrowed power placed there so you can chose it.
I’m comparing to what we currently have.
Blizzard states that we should feel like we have similar power.
They’re objectively reducing the power we have when they put flourish and verdant infusion at odds with each other.
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You can gain other abilities though, is verdant infusion better than having Germination and Photosynthesis instead of it?
You’re gaining 2 end talents, versus losing 1 lego… which you’d have lost anyway.
And about having similar power, that’s all in the tuning.
Which did you prefer… losing all the borrowed power and passing to the next expac with the current trees?
Or having these new trees?
You’d have lost a lot of power… borrowed power there.
The other abilities we can get are absolutely horrendous when you compare to what we have now. Germination is a GCD hog, photosynthesis is way too weak.
That’s good feedback to have for Blizz.
When the paladin trees show up and i expect they’ll make Selfless Healer and Healing Hands in the same choice slot, while being able to get from some other place Justicar’s Vengeance… i’ll also give feedback that Justicar’s Vengeance is so weak nobody will pick it.
I don’t know enough about Druid to understand the Talent Tree for them. I’m looking forward to seeing the Shaman one.
What I’d quite like is a Lightning Branch with lower down options that Increase LB damage, reduce cast speed or increase Crit. Further up the tree I would like Lightning Bolts whilst running (not happening, unfortunately) or Stormkeeper.
Then perhaps an Elemental Branch that increases my Fire Elemental Damage or my Earth Elemental HP and further up the tree Primal Elementalist or Storm Elemental.
A branch for Lava Burst, using some of the Legendary powers from SL
A Branch for Frost too.
We’d get to choose maybe two branches of the four.
So i’ve spent some (a lot) of time comparing each spell/ability/talent/passive whatever from live versus what we have in the DF trees for the Feral spec.
You can skip to the BOTTOM LINE to see what the exact differences are.
To make it easier to match what we have live versus in DF, i’ve added numbers to the spells to find them more easily, they don’t mean anything except matching them.
The result?
Druid spellbook
Charm Woodland creature - fluff spell Dreamwalk - fluff spell- Shred
- Wrath
- Moonfire
- Regrowth
- Revive
- Entangling Roots
- Forms (bear, cat, mount/travel/aquatic/flight, treant )
- Barkskin
- Growl
- Prowl
- Dash
- Ferocious Bite
- Rebirth
- Soothe
- Cyclone
- Stampeding Roar
Druid Spellbook - didn't get these:
Hibernate, Ironfur (bear), Mangle (bear)Feral spellbook
14. Feral Instincs - passive 15. Feline Adept - passive 16. Tiger's Fury + 44. Carnivorous instinct bringing it to 21% dmg up from 19% live 17. Omen of Clarity - passive 19. and 27. Berserk - was split into 2 and gave extra for each 24. Predatory Swiftness - passive 25. Infected Wounds - passive 26. Survival Instincts 28. Rake 29. Thrash 30. Rip 31. Swipe 32. Remove Corruption 33. Skull Bash 37. Feline Swiftness - passive 38. Primal Fury - passive 45. MaimTalents taken on live: Sabertooth / Wild Charge / Restoration Affinity / Mighty Bash / Savage Roar / Primal Wrath / Bloodtalons
Talent tree on live appears as:
(talents 15) Predator / 18. Sabertooth / Lunar Inspiration
(talents 25) 34. Tiger Dash / 41. Renewal / Wild Charge
(talents 30) 46. Restoration Affinity : Ysera’s Gift, Rejuvenation, Swiftmend, Wild Growth, Ursol’s Vortex /
Balance Affinity : Astral Influence, Moonkin Form, Starsurge, Starfire, Sunfire, Typhoon
Guardian Affinity : Thick Hide, Frenzied Regeneration, Incapacitating Roar
(talents 35) 40. Mighty Bash / Mass Entanglement / 42. Heart of the Wild
(talents 40) Soul of the Forest /23. Savage Roar / Incarnation: King of the Jungle
(talents 45) Scent of Blood / 22. Brutal Slash / 20. Primal Wrath
(talents 50) 21. Moment of Clarity / 43. Bloodtalons / Feral Frenzy
And now what we get in DF:
https://mythictrap.com/dragonflights-talents?c106=ndpusc_-f8ej1r_19fqis&c103=j83j11_np3s3k_0
Baseline druid abilities:
Teleport Moonglade - fluff spell
- Shred
- Wrath
- Moonfire
- Regrowth
- Revive
- Entangling Roots
- Forms (bear, cat, mount/travel/aquatic/flight, treant where u at bro?)
- Barkskin
- Growl
- Prowl
- Dash
- Ferocious Bite
- Rebirth
- Mark of the Wild - extra
Feral Druid Baseline Abilities
14. Feral Instinct: Reduces the chance enemies have to detect you while Prowl is active. 15. Feline Adept: Soothe and Remove Corruption are usable in Cat Form.Feral Tree
16. Tiger's Fury - 30 energy 15% dmg - was split 17. Omen of Clarity 18. Sabertooth 19. Berserk - Relentlessness - buffed to refund 2 combo points, but split the rest with Jungle Stalker 20. Primal Wrath 21. Moment of Clarity - though nerfed as it was split 22. Brutal Slash 23. Savage Roar 24. Predatory Swiftness 25. Infected Wounds 26. Survival Instincts 27. Berserk - Jungle Stalker - second part of Berserk + buffed to get Prowl once to use 43. Bloodtalons 44. Carnivorous Instinct + 6% more dmg to Tiger's Fury making it 21% up from 19% liveThey bring the abilities up to par with live.
Improved Shred
Improved Prowl
Improved Shred and Swipe
- Feral Tree - extras
Sudden Ambush - conduit
Taste for Blood - conduit
Eye of Fearful Symmetry - lego
Adaptive Swarm - covenant
Convoke the Spirits - covenant
Druid Tree
28. Rake 29. Thrash 30. Rip 31. Swipe 32. Remove Corruption 33. Skull Bash 34. Tiger Dash 35. Soothe 36. Cyclone 37. Feline Swiftness 38. Primal Fury 39. Stampeding Roar 40. Mighty Bash 41. Renewal 42. Heart of the Wild 45. Maim 46. Rejuvenation - resto affinity 46. Swiftmend - resto affinity 46. Wild Growth - resto affinity 46. Ursol's Vortex - resto affinity - no Ysera's GiftDruid Tree - extras
Frienzied Regeneration - guardian affinity
Increased Armor and Physical Damage - 6%
Increased Healing and Magic Damage - 6%
Increased Healing and Healing Taken - 6%
Lycara’s Teachings - 3% crit in cat
BOTTOM LINE - What was gained, extra versus live:
Feral Tree - extras
Sudden Ambush - conduit
Taste for Blood - conduit
Eye of Fearful Symmetry - lego
Adaptive Swarm - covenant
Convoke the Spirits - covenant
Druid Tree - extras
Frienzied Regeneration - guardian affinity
Increased Armor and Physical Damage - 6%
Increased Healing and Magic Damage - 6%
Increased Healing and Healing Taken - 6%
Lycara’s Teachings - 3% crit in cat
Mark of the Wild - Increases the target’s Speed and critical strike chance by 3% and reduces their magic damage taken by 3% for 60 minutes.
Extra talents gotten as opposed to live: Renewal / Heart of the Wild / Brutal Slash / Moment of Clarity (though partial as it was split)
What was lost, versus live:
Druid Spellbook - didn’t get these:
Hibernate
Ironfur - Req bear form
Mangle - Req bear form
So basically, you’re gaining 2 conduits, 2 covenant abilities, 1 lego, frenzied regen, 6% phys dmg and armor, 12% healing done and 6% healing taken, 6% crit, 3% speed and 3% dmg reduce.
AND 4 talents extra versus live: Renewal, Heart of the Wild, Brutal Slash and Moment of Clarity (partial).
And you’re losing: Hibernate, Ironfur (bear), Mangle (bear) and Ysera’s Gift from Restoration Affinity.
Changed/Neutral: 20 energy less on Tiger’s Fury but 2% more damage done.
This is ofc, with the 10 points you get from lvling to 70, versus if we had another extension on the normal tree for 8th row, you’d have gotten only 1 talent extra as opposed to all of the above.
- Disclaimer: Hopefully there aren’t errors in the matching of the abilities, let me know if there are any discrepancies.
Conclusion: It seems you gain a lot more than you lose as Feral spec.
I’d argue it’s lot less free, because on second row, I’m not influenced by what I chose on first floor.
And bunch of other stuff that I have to choose in new tree is passives I already had.
Wrong data.
https://mythictrap.com/dragonflights-talents?c106=ndpusc_-f8ej1r_19fqis&c103=j83j11_np3s3k_0
THIS is impossible build.
Conclusion: Your conclusion is invalid.
What’s impossible about the build?
The 2 Moonkin talents is just a bug that appears on loading a tree, i didn’t count on them when making the tree.
For example you cannot pick Cyclone without putting talents to pre-required talents.
There are lines between talents and you cannot choose randomly any talent (tbh I thought you knew about this mechanic) but it’s a tree instead, so you have to have a node (line) that continues into the talent node you wish to pick.
If you could ignore the lines, then yes, the problem would’ve been solved.
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Right click to deselect talents.
Idk what you’re seeing, but i followed the lines from:
Rejuvenation > Swiftmend > Remove Corruption > Increased Healing and Magic Damage > Cyclone
I didn’t have them, the talents are selected automatically when another user loads the tree.