The reason we had all those borrowed power systems is because the current Fisher Price talent trees don’t offer enough agency to build different playstyles. Especially when they only really have a couple of rows for big bitter cool abilities. The other rows were usually movement speed or avoiding stuns or some other utility that I never really looked at as a non pvper / non m+er.
I see more scope in these trees. That’s not to say they won’t be implemented poorly, they may well be. But I see more scope for better and more varied builds with the larger trees.
That is not true at all. The reason why are are no different playstyles is because classes lost so much in the WoD and even more in Legion prunes and Blizzard has done very little if anything to change them since then.
We can discuss other stuff. I’m just not continuing THAT ‘debate’.
Also: Get a life.
Wowwwww the ego is real.
Ok mr perfect.
You mean the cubicle crawling ones?
Those? Yeeeeaahhhhh… About those…
Me neither. But Blizzard as a company does care about public perception.
And their image took a huge hit in the past 2 years. So they’re grasping at whatever straws are within reach. Understandable, but not really the best way to make decisions.
An argument? For an opinion? Why?
This isn’t some competition. You can have any opinion you like and I can have mine.
It’s fine. We don’t need to agree.
I just happen to like the idea of borrowed power - IF (and it’s an important if) the system providing that borrowed power is FUN. In Legion it was. In BfA it wasn’t. In Shadowlands it was ‘okay-ish’ in some areas and ‘godawful’ in others. For me, that is, because to be clear; all of this is MY opinion.
New skills for classes that have existed for 18+ years. To keep that feeling fresh and new is harder than you might think.
I suspect you just want to feel overpowered and able to ‘do it all’.
That’s really how it comes across. And you’re going to stomp your little feet and pout until you get what you want. But as most adults know…
Well, I can only speak for myself. But I just look forward to having some skills/talents that I’ve loved ever since they were introduced in Legion (having 2 pets for instance). I don’t need sweeping changes that might ruin a class I love playing as it is right now.
They can change all the other classes even specs for all I care; I really don’t care one bit.
Just leave BM hunter alone when it comes to big changes. That’s all I care about when it comes to specs/classes. They can do smaller, cool changes, sure. But nothing that changes the feel of how this spec plays.
THAT is why I’m against big class changes. Because chances are, if they do those, they’re going to be for all classes and specs. So no thank you. Do not want.
Like above… I don’t need to. You don’t need to either.
You like what you like and I like what I like.
WE DISAGREE. Who cares?!
So you want people’s livelyhood taken away because you don’t enjoy their vision for a game. Wow. You are one pathetic human being.
Sure this is a factor.
But in MOP we also had Reforging, so gear could alter playstyles more.
We had more Gems and Enchants. So we could do more to adapt our characters to how we wanted to play. I remember Shaman had a Haste build or a Mastery build. Depending on which stat you choose then you could use different Talents.
If they wish to bring back Reforging and multiple gem sockets in most of our gear along with some more enchants. Then sure we could get away with a Fisher Price Talent system. But we’re not getting those. So it’s a choice between convoluted borrowed power systems or a more complex talent tree. I choose the more complex talent tree.
That’s fair. And it’s probably the safer choice too.
Because borrowed power requires new big, build-around systems. And such a system can very well turn out to be detrimental to the game’s enjoyment (as BfA and Shadowlands have proven).
Well I mean, you’re the one who has told me twice they won’t discuss with me- And yet, here you are. Doing just that.
Just don’t reply to me if you don’t want to.
I wouldn’t say I’m perfect. But you did ask why am I here: And you’d be right, it would be absolutely insane to linger here if I had nothing kept me here. But as it stands, I have my friends and the RP we make. So, there’s your answer.
Yeah, undoubtedly. Horrible as they were, at least they seem to have made the game better than the current devs do.
I wouldn’t want them back to the business- But I do understand the resentment of the current devs. Being outdone by the literal worst of your lot- It is, as said, a situation where a shoemaker has no shoes.
But you do feel the need to remind that my opinion is an opinion. As said, if you want to have a conversation, you have to omit to some objectivity. otherwise we’re all in our own subjective bubbles, in which case there’s no point to even have a conversation.
The thing is that Borrowed power creates a recurring problem. What I hear a lot of people say that Legion felt good- Perhaps it did, I wouldn’t know, I was a PVPer you see so it was in fact quite messed up for me. I even raided for the first time in my life and I can without a shred of doubt say that it was the worst experience I have ever had in this game.
Now, my anecdotal experience doesn’t matter half as much as how much Legion broke the game. And in fact, it is still broken because of Legion. It truly was the anti-christ expansion of the game’s history.
First, Legion shattered some really core, fundamental systems in the game that the subsequent two expansions have spent all their time trying to fix. To varying degrees of success, but we still haven’t recovered from them:
Glyph system was destroyed, removing a massive amount of class and spell customization that what class, even spec specific, from the game.
Completely ruined some of the most stable specs this game had ever had that to this date suffer from low player numbers and are only ever played when they are buffed to ridiculous levels (Outlaw, Demonology, Marksman, Survival).
Completely massacred some base class toolkits to the point Blizzard has spent both BFA and SL giving classes back their utility.
Ability design went to complete deep-end hell, where our baseline abilities and spells were nerfed to the ground, and both cooldown centered + ability strength bloat started. Some abilities just do/did way too many things and were ridiculously forgiving and/or served multiple purposes. A few examples: Automated divine shield (no longer reduced damage either), spell reflect blocking all spells for 3 seconds instead of just 1, specs like fire mage dealing 0 damage outside of combustion, and more. There’s a reason a class like Demon Hunter saw its dawn in the worst expansion in regards to design philosophy.
Destroyed itemization across the board (titanforging, PVE and pvp separation removed, etc).
Introduced eternal burnout grinds to the game that practically made alting impossible.
Every single one of those problems continued down to BFA- Only that, it no longer had the hype of the Artifact weapons. So they made a system to fix the system, and then another system to fix that system, and finally added corruption on top of it and called a day.
Every single reason the modern game design is crap is because of Legion. And that’s not just an opinion, there’s proof everywhere about it.
No, it is not. If a complete dolt like me can design abilities, or another Joe from across the street, then sure as hell can employees of a billion dollar business.
Depends on what you mean by that. Because if everyone is overpowered, then nobody is. This was largely true for both Wotlk and MoP, which happen to be also the most successful expansions to date.
But if you mean that every class should have an answer for everything- That also is complicated. Do you mean that every class should have some form of mobility? Absolutely. The game’s designed around high mobility and uptime, so that is necessary, for example.
Well, it’s funny you should mention that- Because, that’s exactly how we got the changes to Shadow Priest and how we got Tier sets!
Blizzard told about two years ago in an interview that “they do not do x things because people just spam them about it”. And then they do exactly that- So people just shout and scream loud enough at them, and they will listen. Eventually.
I’d much rather prefer they actually listened to our advice for less, but if this is the tested and tried route, then we’ll do that. Because that seems to work.
So why do you care about this discussion at all, if you just want BM to stay as it is? I’m not a developer but I can promise it’s going to stay that way.
It’s funny you called me out for supposedly being against change earlier and against adapting- And yet, here you are doing the complete same thing.
I don’t think they need to fix what isn’t broken, but the problem is that so many things are broken it needs root and stem kind of fixing. BM’s not one of them, though.
Well, you apparently, since you keep telling me.
Yes. Absolutely, this, 100%.
If a fireman can’t do their job due to their physical fitness, I would certainly want them removed from that job and be replaced by somebody who can.
I already am so I guess I’ll continue that. See you again I guess.
I don’t even think it’s that- As it’s blatantly clear with the modern devs (just look at the story), they want to leave their own legacy on the game and are desperate to use the game as a platform to validate themselves- Rather than, you know, stay true to it and respect it’s legacy.
Yeah
it’s happen often that person is trying to insert himself into a someone elses work
I hate these kinds of people
no respect for the original
my boy nate dogg called them COPYCATS
I’d be happy with some type of reforging and more enchantments being available, although probably a discussion for another thread.
In a pure choice between more complex talent trees and simpler MOP talent trees I would choose the complex ones.
If we did bring back more gear adaptations, such as gems, enchantments and reforging then we’d probably need to slow down the gear conveyor belt slightly (which I personally would be quite happy with). Unless reforging was near free and gems and enchants were pretty cheap (or had cheap versions for casuals).
That’s what the topic is about. It doesn’t. That’s my feedback.
Speak for yourself. You don’t know.
Shills like you keep saying “we don’t know yet.”
Well, you don’t know, possibly. But there are people like me that were able to call this out in advance multiple times (pretty much always) in past, with conduit energy, covenant swapping, azerite armor & so much other stuff.
Then it always turns out you didn’t know, but other people did.
Fair enough.
RP is awesome. I have no WoW RP experience, but I play in several D&D campaigns and I currently run 3 campaigns as a DM.
Agreed. Hence why I stopped having that former discussion. Because neither of us were about to budge (and that’s fine by the way - it’s just a waste of time to continue on then).
Very possible. I haven’t done any progression raiding since the end of vanilla (I joined a rare raid TBC and WotLK, but I wasn’t on the active roster anymore). I just don’t enjoy the activity of raiding.
So as a player who mainly does world content and non-mythic dungeons; Legion was THE best time I had in WoW since it launched.
That’s not a fact. That’s an opinion.
And I fundamentally disagree. I think Legion was the best expansion WoW has had.
I never liked the system. I prefered it being cosmetic - I DO think there’s much more they can do with it in cosmetic terms.
Subjective. Not factual.
Wouldn’t know. Didn’t affect me in the slightest.
Couldn’t care less about things like this.
With the way I enjoy the game, balancing is not an issue, classes outperforming others isn’t an issue.
I agree on the PvE/PvP seperation.
However; I greatly enjoyed titanforging and thought it was wonderful.
For Legion I really don’t agree. I had more alts than I had had since vanilla.
I’m not an alt person myself; I prefer to focus on a single main. But I get it.
Those borrowed power systems did make getting alts up to par much more time consuming.
But a lot of it IS opinion. As my above replies make clear.
But you can’t. You only think you can.
Sorry if that bursts your bubble.
I don’t agree. I’m fine with every class having a weakness. Makes things interesting.
Maybe for PvP that’s too imbalanced; I’m not a PvPer so can’t really speak on that. And if so; that should be fixed with the PvP talents. That is the perfect place to make sure classes are balanced and have access to ‘a complete kit’.
And imo that wasn’t an improvement.
I haven’t liked it. Not from an aesthetic PoV (set design) as well as from a progression PoV.
Players want different things. One player asking for X and actually getting it, might ruin the game for another player.
Agreed. But like I said: " THAT is why I’m against big class changes. Because chances are, if they do those, they’re going to be for all classes and specs. So no thank you. Do not want."
I am interested in other peoples opinion but I always make my own.
Listening to multiple opinions about something is good, especially when important decisions and changes are being made.
It two completely different systems that serves completely different purposes though.
That’s crafting, gathering, gearing and cosmetics.
The talent trees affect combat and needs to with work and be balanced for the main content, m+, pvp and raids.
There are over 90 talents to pick from. The class tree has about 40-50 talents and the spec tree has over 40 talents and there are 2-4 specs depending on class.
That require more planning.
Sure, if the world was perfect we would get a bunch of new abilities and playstyle options. But I’m not gonna dream.
We have seen how incredibly slow the wheel at blizzard is turning.
But when I think they are doing something good I’m gonna say it and say what I like about it so they can keep moving in that direction.
And if they do something that is bad I’m gonna say it as well and give feedback what I’d like to see instead.
I regularly leave suggestions through the in-game option.
You have been going on about them promising stuff and not delivering, you brought up how you majored in marketing and hate false advertisement.
You claimed they said things they didn’t.
They have been pretty clear that these new talent trees are going to bring back some older abilities that we have lost in the past expansion with the removal of their borrowed powers.
And that these talent trees are gonna stay for as long as possible.
They are laying the foundation for the system that is gonna be the core of building our characters for the next couple expansions at least.
So we are getting new talent combinations as well as previous powers and even a couple of new it seems.
And what does the argument that you get more than before have to do with the fact that they didnt say what you claim they did?
You are getting access to abilities you have lost, are losing or never had access to before.
You argued that they lied because those things you now gain access to is not new and fresh because they are just old powers brought back.
But they never said you would get new and fresh abilities?
Due to there being gates where you have to spend a certain amount of point in order to unlock.
A lot of the early talents are naturally gonna be the similar or the same.
And deeper in the tree is were you will find more variation.
An a lot of the arguments have been about losing stuff so builds have been shared to show you can regain them as well as pick up additional stuff that you don’t have now.
You are basing this on early mock ups of the trees. As mentioned previously we have already seen these trees change once between the announcement of the expansion and the release of these early previews.
They have already explained that this is to gain as much feedback as possible, as early in development as possible. Alpha isn’t even out yet. We have two out of thirteen classes to preview.
The benefit is that this system can be expanded upon further than the mop style talents.
The mop style talents is the reason they started with borrowed power, because just adding a new row of talents was not enough.
And do you think they would have added three new rows in dragonflight if they didn’t change the system?
Do you think they would have given each class 9 unique options we havent seen before?
They have stated the reason we most likely wont see many new abilities is because the team is busy with the new class.
Like I’ve said, they need work and blizzard knows that which is why they released these previews.
Hybridisation as in picking up abilities that are not aimed at your main role.
A retribution paladin picking up holy abilities and utilisation in order to off-heal or picking up tanking abilities and damage reduction in order to temporarily off-tank a mob, the boss or soak a mechanic.
Arms warriors sometimes do this when the second tank is dead and the boss is about to use the tank mechanic on the alive thank which is gonna kill him, so they pop die by the sword and taunt etc.
Because instead of having a little bit of this and a little bit of that you remove one little bit of this and get a bigger bit of that.
If you don’t like to change it up then take a little bit of this and that and be done with it.
I like to tailor my build for the challenge im facing, in BFA I needed an addon to keep track of talents, essences, azerite gear and trinket loadouts.
I like theory crafting so I had a bunch of different builds saved with macros to easily switch between them by popping a tome and clicking the appropriate button for the build i want.
Because the current system is still limited to one point per row.
Agree, which is why the current system sucks. After spending one point two of the single target talents becomes unavailable even though I still have another single target point to spend.
Then we have marksman that can pick single target in all their damage rows if they want.
Which is why I’d like to spend that point in something that actually enhances my gameplay.
Our ST is already poor while our AoE is great, so I happily trade some of that AoE for ST if possible.
Because not every single target fight is the same, just how every AoE fight is not the same. Some require burst, others sustained.
Some fights aren’t strictly ST or AoE but have different phases.
Vexiona has a lot of adds coming in until the last phase where it’s just single target.
Being able to switch and tune between your single target and your AoE depending on what the group struggle with is a huge improvement for fights like that.
Adds arent dying fast enough? Alright, will switch to bladestorm instead of cruelty.
Can’t burn her down fast enough in the last phase? Ait, I’ll get massacre then.
The talent swapping will be the same as now, you are in a rested area or you pop a tome.
I have already told you why I believe it’s better.
More baseline mean less possible options for the future.
By having the majority of abilities in the trees, not only will it enhance the levelling experience and make people more aware of possible tools they can have.
It also opens up for more unique utility and playstyles to be added in the future.
The borrowed power systems has a bunch of utility passives in them, imagine if we kept those as baselines when we went onto the next system.
Look at timewalking dungeons, you can have both your shadowlands powers and your BFA powers active at the same time there. I have 3 different powers that has a change to give me recklessness for a short duration and two that reduce the cooldown of recklessness.
It’s fun, dont get me wrong, but it’s clearly too much.
Yeah because blizzard refused to balance them and also locked you into that covenant.
So if you wanted to do any serious content you had to pick that covenant due to how much of your power is actually tied to the covenants.
It is not the case of talents were you can actually mix around and still do perfectly well.
Some covenants could one shot in pvp due to how strong the combinations with legendaries were.
Blizzard failed had on balancing. As fury you barely did any ST worth mentioning.
I was venthyr which was the ST covenant and it still sucked, we ended up getting a small buff after a few weeks, but it was not enough so they had to buff us even more.
Now imagine if I had been necrolord which was the worst of them.
If covenant abilities instead had been just another talent row and soulbinds werent a thing you would have seen more diversity for sure.
Alright, I disagree. I am finally getting back what I have wanted so I’m happy.
And I hope you can find a build that works for you.
You can’t know that yet. Because you can’t play it yet.
Neither do you.
All you have is your salt and bias and negativity.
Not at all a shill. Blizz have been doing many things that I don’t like and I’m vocal about that. I did not like a lot in BfA and I hated many aspects of Shadowlands. So yeah.
The thing is; even if ‘you turn out to be right’ on some issues, it doesn’t mean I was wrong. Because we enjoy different aspects of this game and so care about different things.
I can. Never has there been a time where I thought I’d find something bad and then I didn’t.
I do.
Sure and you found out you don’t like them when exactly? What did you not like?
For example I hated corruption vendor being on rotation. I hated that since announcement.
Did I change opinion? No. It was obvious to me before, I didn’t need to wait for it to know it’ll feel bad to me.
Maybe I am so much better than you at assessing what I will like or not.
It does. If I am right about it feeling bad, then I called it in advance and your opinion that I don’t know was wrong. You may enjoy telling me that I don’t know yet, but that doesn’t mean you’re right.
Just shows one of your own personal shortcomings, honestly. The lack of being able to keep an open mind. You have your mind made up and are too stubborn to even entertain the thought of changing it, even if you secretly turn out to like it. You’ll still proclaim to hate it, just to be able to claim you were right.
No. You’re worse at keeping an open mind. That’s what.
That’s not what I meant with that argument. What I meant was:
If you for instance said in advance that titanforging would be horrible and you afterwards say ‘see, I was right; it was horrible’, while I like titanforging, it only proves you didn’t like it. Not that it was objectively horrible. Since I, for instance, liked it.
That is the sort of thing I meant.
Now… I KNOW you don’t know whether you like the system or not. That’s a fact.
You THINK you know, but that’s just you being stubborn and closeminded.
You’re so adament to be right that you’ll not change your mind regardless of what happens. It’s not a good characteristic to have, to be honest.
I’ve shared my dislike of raiding and PvP and M+. But they’re not dislikes based on me thinking I’ll hate them. No. That’d be silly.
I’ve tried all of those things. Multiple times. And I don’t like them. Hence me being able to say I don’t.
It’s like you saying ‘I don’t like chocolate’ after watching a picture of a bar of chocolate. Without ever even having tried a single bite. That is what you’re doing and it’s quite ridiculous.
There’s things I’m unsure about. There’s things I’m not.
I’m not going to change my mind just for the sake of changing my mind.
I think what I think is right. I’m not going to think what I think is wrong.
So far nowhere did you entertain the thought that I am actually capable at foretelling what I like.
It seems you’re the close minded one.
I on the other hand acknowledged that maybe you’re right about yourself and you’re in fact impotent to call what you’ll like in advance. I just clarified it doesn’t apply to me.
These aren’t mutually exclusive positons. Both are true (to an extent).
Legion was a very enjoyable expansion in many ways. I particularly enjoyed having Order Hall campaigns on my alts. The Lore was good. Content was rolled out at a rapid pace (perhaps too rapid at times). I liked profession quests (except when they forced us into dungeons).
But its systems and structure led directly to BFA and SL. Borrowed power with AP grinds and Legendaries (with various acquisition issues). Shark jumping stories trying to maintain Legion’s Lore heavy intensity.
Legion managed to be an enjoyable expansion despite its major flaws but those flaws undermined the game for two (possibly more) expansions.
Hopefully Dragonflight is moving away from Legion’s model of the game.
