New tauren leader [spoiler]

Lore Story
181

But that’s the problem with Baine rigth now. It’s not that he has acted agaisnt Sylvanas. Is when and what maked him stands out.

What makes Baine snaps and take action? It’s not Sylvanas burning thousands of innocents and forcing the Horde into a full-scale war. It’s not Sylvanas blighting her own troops and rasing them as undeads puppets. It’s not seeing his people bleed and die in a war that he knows is unjust and “dishonorable”.

No. What makes him snaps it’s to see a brother of Jaina turned undead and being torutured. That’s what makes him take action.

His people’s bodies desecrated and blighted during the siege of Lordaeron? That’s worth it an ironic “for the Horde" (and not even since he says that because of Saurfang “being left behind”, even if it was his wish). His people dying in a stupid war? That’s perfectly fine. But a human being tortured after being raised? Oh man, that’s too much. Now it’s the time to stand against Sylvanas.

That’s why people complain on him and call him a hypocrite. What Sylvanas does to Derek is a perfectly valid reason to fight her. But the burning of Teldrassil, the desecration of tauren, orc and trolls bodies, the nonsense war Sylvanas have taken the Horde, all those were reasons as much as valid as Derek’s torture, if not more. And all those existed way before Jaina’s brother raising.

But it seems that, for Baine, they weren’t enough reasons to stand against Sylvanas. Only when a random Alliance character who Baine have never met before is suffering an unjust sittuation, he dares to stand out. And that’s the crux with Baine. He seems more interested in Alliance lives than in Horde ones.

It happened before after Taurajo and in Theramore. It goes with his character. He is the leader with closest bonds with the Alliance. And that’s fine, he fits that role. But when most of the times he takes the spotligth he tends to act more in line with Alliance wishes that with his people interests, then its when his position as leader is doubted.

Of course, the problem in the end is always the same. Blizzard’s bad writing, not knowing what to do with the story and their famous “Continuity exists to enhance a story…”

I would differ with that. He is weakening the Horde. That’s objectively true. He is helping the Alliance while hindering the Horde war efforts. What he is doing is indeed helping the Alliance to win, but in a way that shows them there are people in the Horde which can be counted on and can be allies.

And I think gamble is the right word. Your example of the strike is a really good one. But in this case Baine only knows the “Alliance’s prime manager” is eager to “give the Horde better conditions”. As far as he knows, Jaina, Genn and Tyrande hate the guts of the Horde, and the rest of the leadership doesn’t have too much sympathy for the Horde. And he should know that Kul’tirans, Gilneans and Kaldorei have still a huge grudge with the Horde.

Of course we, as the ones reading the story, know that Genn and Jaina have been toned down and more important, that the game limits don’t allow for a complete Horde extermination. But Baine doesn’t know that. He only knows Anduin’s stance in trying to save as most as he can. So he is helping the Alliance hoping Anduin can calm/convince all those parts of the Alliance which would ask for dismantling the Horde if not just simply extermination at the moment of the Alliance victory. A pure “all or nothing” gamble.

Of course the other option would be to help Sylvanas and bet for her winning the war. Which is another gamble, and one which doesn’t fot Baine moral compass.

7 Likes
182

I like your post Deathskulk, but point is, Baine taking concrete action would force the plot forward at an immensely quick pace.

And Blizzard can not finish BFA in the prepatch. The price of this practicality is Baine’s character.

3 Likes
183

No both sacrifice war effort to further their personal agenda, in some hope that the Aliance wouldn’t be as harsh, when we suffer a loss they caused to begin with.

184

Horde helping Zandalari and Horde waging war against the Alliance because plot reasons are two separate things, sis.

Subjective.

From my point of view, Lor’themar and Vol’jin are both traitors who sought out the help of the mighty Alliance :wink: just like Baine.

Subjective. Depends on the person and the situation. There are no objective conclusions because all individuals are different.

Alexander the Great had his own sort of “moral integrity”. He never allowed ANY of his officers to act defensively on the battlefield. They were all always to attack. Always forward. Not to pragmatic, eh? Especially when your core unit is phalanx, a defence-incarnate sort of formation. And yet, he did accomplish a lot in terms of military achievements. He also didn’t sack holy sites and allowed all local rulers to live and rule if they acknowledged his supremacy. Again, not pragmatic at all. But in accordance to moral integrity of his own, SUBJECTIVE, understanding.

The fact of expressing moral integrity as a ruler does not equal being a failure. Historically proven.

This is true. The only thing I could deploy against that is that, subjectively speaking, I always associated a sort of morality with this saying (orcs were my favourite in Warcraft III times). And, according to that subjective preference, I’d say that this saying is meaningless if the war is unjust and started out of someone’s psychosis. Then again, Saurfang went with it himself, so I am not arguing here.

1 Like
185

And that goes against Lok’tar Ogar…how? They choose their fight, and they fight it.

Really, that isn’t in any way part of their stated motives. They fight against what they think the Horde is becoming. Not for lenience. Not everyone is a consequentialist.

There is no “we” that includes Saurfang and Sylvanas.

1 Like
186

Exactly. But that’s mainly becasue Blizzard escalated the conflict, and I’m going to quote you “at an immensely quick pace”.

To start the faction conflict with Sylvanas doing some of the worse things we have seen in Wow till now was not one of the wisest choices of the writers… But that’s what happens when you write with the “rule of cool”. Characters have to be butchered and stories have to be twisted so the show can go on.

6 Likes
187

i like u deathskulk.

You set a point of view that all Sylvannas, Saurfang and Baine supporters maker in one post. And that’s a gold star for me.

3 Likes
188

This is very true.

I would say that this makes him snap because perhaps this is to be the first case of Forsaken denied free will.

Perhaps Blizzard wanted Baine to snap here and everyone else to be abhorred because they want Derek’s case to be the first case of breaking “Free will” concept.

Or it’s because PLOT.

See above.

IF I believed that Blizzard cares in the SLIGHTEST about he story, I’d say it’s because they are pushing the idea that Derek is the first undead denied free will.

Mind the “IF” part of my statement.

You are smart and I like you :heart:

My heart breaks a little evritiem…

Debatable, kindest of the Forsaken :wink:

From technical standpoint, yes he is.

From moral standpoint, he is SAVING the Horde.

Did I mention that I like you already?

1 Like
189

Horde wouldn’t be there if they didn’t need teh fleet.

Theron… fair enough. He said he would “reconsider old aliances” after teh bell debacle.(difference is he did it for his people)

And who do you think was the first to suggest it?(Baine) Besides he was approached by them and didn’t go out of his way to please them.

Well in your example Baine would be the officer acting defensively despite being told not to.

The only problem that their fight is against the Horde and with the aliance.

Still willing to throw the Horde away, because it’s not up to their higher moral standard. cretins should join the aliance officially and be done with it. That would really show em the “honor and integrity”.

“we” was talking about the Horde. And Saurfang/Baine’s sabotage doesn’t require them to be a part of it to be seriously detrimental.

190

So not with lok’tar ogar. Good, that’s what I reacted to. I’m sure these two hurt the Horde’s chances of a hollow victory. What I objected to was the idea that they went against the Horde credo in the process. Especially since Sylvanas’ Horde seems to be a much clearer violater of the spirit of “victory or death”.

1 Like
191

Horde wouldn’t need the fleet if they didn’t start the war that the Alliance didn’t want x)

He did and I liked this of him (I was Horde then, so I wasn’t “happy because he was going to the blue team”). It was a very good development and showed how much he cares for his people.

I brought him up as an analogy.

Subjective :wink:

Baine would be a wonderful commander of a phalanx-based army.

Its defensive capabilities are a treat when deployed offensively.

1 Like
192

YM money is on the plot

Always was specifically abouthardline mindcontrol magic

Probably just me seeind treason as one of the most condemning things one can do. Especially someone of his position.

They have. Saurfang threw the fight agains Anduin and surrendered, in hopes of his faction losing.

Wouldn’t have to save Zandalari either.

My point was that he would stay defensive in the back, while the others attacked, with no real reason other than not following Alexander. Or because attacking is not up to his moral standards

193

Arguing for a truce while losing is giving up any possibility of improvement, and simply opening yourself to whatever punishment the other side is willing to inflict upon you.
For Horde mindsets, that have mottos such as “Loktar Ogar”, this should be unthinkable.
For Horde cultures, that try and honour their alliances and fight for their people, you simply don’t argue this behind everyone elses back, while getting additional comrades killed for it.

The leader mindset not always represents the camp. Blizzard words.
And Baine should be smart enough to realise this after how the last truce was breached in Stormheim (due to actions that were supposedly “compensated” by some Good Guy Actions, like you are arguing Baine is doing here). Or how he is doing all this while the alliance slaughters its way into the Barrens and sieges Mulgore.

Worst case scenario, you sacrifice yourself and turn into a Martyr to showcase how detrimental Sylvanas is for the Horde. How? Like this:

Best case scenario, you win. Become leader, and change the Horde to be more of your liking.

Either way, you remain true to the Horde and Tauren values. Instead of once again sneaking behind your peoples back and getting even more soldiers killed in the process.

And i doubt the part about Sylvanas wanting to remain in power, as she herself laments having to be that way.

Why? He can stamp his foot down and bow to righten this war and not do that kind of stuff again. Argue about “This war that started honourably but devolved into something evil, has been fixed. And now we fight for the Horde alone, to survive and thrive, and we will triumph”.
Go back to the motives that made Saurfang kickstart this war.

He is negating the Horde the chance to weaken Kul tiras. After the Alliance went ahead and killed the Hordes newest ally and raided his city.
And killing Horde soldiers while at it, while turning worthless all the deaths that came from the war effort on Kul tiran soil.

How is it that elves don’t feel the same about tauren then? How is it that in both cataclysm and now, they are sieging Tauren lands in the Barrens and Mulgore?
How is it that even Saurfang agreed to the War of Thorns?

194

And “lok’tar ogar” was refering to one specific victory? Did Doomhammer violate it, when he gave up victory over the Alliance to defeat Gul’dan? If that’s the case it seems pretty stupid to me anyway. I thought of it more as the warrior’s mindset.

Edit:
Oh, and reading it again: I never saw him throw any fight. I have no idea what Anduin was refering to, when he said Saurfang could have killed him. I saw Saufang being beaten down by a raid, till he was defeated, and then taken as prisoner.

1 Like
195

Mine too, because my idea would mean that the storyteller actually THOUGHT about that plot! And I don’t believe that Blizzard did.

The problem with Forsaken free will concept is that Blizzard threw condradictory examples at us. Andorhal for example. I was always fully ready to accept the fact that Sylvanas uses no mind control at all, but then I was hit in in my horns with Andorhal farmers.

My conclusion? PLOT!

A clash of subjective opinions. Morality is not a set-in-stone concept. What one calls moral, another might call immoral. I am not saying that my subjective opinion about morality is better than anyone else’s because it is not.

Exactly! So the war is pointless :wink:

Depends on who stands on the other side of sarissas :wink:

Baine might have a problem with waging war against the Alliance because he has a hard time considering them enemies that need eradicating.

… or PLOT!

1 Like
196

Just before I respond to other points, let me be clear that I agree that Baine should’ve acted earlier, and that he should’ve taken responsibility for what his people wanted… but I don’t think Baine is an Alliance loyalist, he has proven to be loyal to the Horde too. Neither do I think that we should judge his character based only on his actions alone but also his motivations.

I agree that he should’ve done something much earlier, although he didn’t have a lot of choices apart from dying to Sylvanas in a Mak’gora. He should’ve taken responsibility for the fact that he is the leader of the Tauren.

To me, it feels more like a culmination of events… and an innocent man being raised and tortured, that was the last straw for him. This wasn’t supposed to be an open rebellion against, but it was at least something Baine could control. It was the least he could do in the given situation, regardless of who Derek was.

And that is what I am trying to point out, within all the Baine-bashing. There is SOME good to his actions, something that still shows that the old Baine is not dead yet. Which brings me to my point that Baine is not an unfit leader, but one who is still unexperienced, and needs to grow a better judgement.

It probably is.

That is all true, but it is Anduin in the end who takes this decision. Anduin on his side already helps a lot, and Jaina and the Kul Tirans won’t forget so easily what Baine did for them by returning Derek. He might even get support from Genn if he starts rebelling against Sylvanas (if he ever does so, he probably will) since Genn is more concerned with ending the Forsaken and Sylvanas.

Baine is not completely unredeemable after letting Teldrassil slide, but I agree that he and the rest of the Horde needs to prove his worth more because of it. And that makes it a risk, or a gamble if you all insist. But it is a risk worth taking, since no one else has tried to show their loyalty.

He knows that Jaina helped him before, and that he helped her in a way, so I don’t know what picture he has of Jaina. But that shouldn’t be too relevant.

It’s hard to describe but I do agree with the spirit or meaning of your reply. Maybe not with everything, but I think you’re describing a clear picture of what is wrong with Baine. But I felt the need to show that Baine is not a lost character, and that there are still good traits in him left. And that the fact that he betrayed the Horde might be one of his gravest mistakes, but even that act still has merit and worth, and had some influence on the way Anduin and Jaina view the Horde. It was a great risk, and I hope it will pay out in the future.

I am not trying to argue that Baine is the best leader the Tauren have to offer, or that he’s acted exactly how he should have, or that the fact that he returned Derek is a such an awesome thing. But I just felt that someone needed to point out the positive aspects of his actions out, for what it’s worth.

I hope I make my intentions clear, and that we’re not disagreeing that much. Same goes for Winfield/Zarao btw.

1 Like
197

That was the only thing that could make sense in this travesty called story. But again, that could (and should) be the turning point of a Forsaken. But anyone who hold the values of the “spiritual Horde” should have snaped way before. The fact that Baine didn’t is sadly explained in one word.

i would say that form a moral standpoint he is trying to salvage something that could be called Horde after all of this mess ends.

I’m not sure if he would be able though.

Shhh. Don’t say that too loud. if Sylvanas hears that a founder of the curch of greymane likes me… Well, let’s say a vanish would not save me.

Not so difficult. In the end all of us, Alliance or Horde, Sylvanas or Saurfang supporters, Anduin or Tyrande fans, are tied by something bigger than our differences.

Our utter disgust for the current storyline.

1 Like
198

Yup. Plot, oh plot.

Ah, continuity! Where art thou?!… Ah yes, Blizzard thinks you’re not necessary.

I approve of you.

Of course not, but the PLOT will force a big fat “yes” down our throats anyway.

… Hail Greymane :wink:

1 Like
199

Because that would necessitate him being characterised as having a spine, for once. Or guts to stand up to his leader face to face

Reminds me of that one scene with Negan, from walking dead, where he plays pool with and guts a guy, who wanted him to kill rick grimes

200

Well, he does have a spine as is evident from the novel The Shattering, I think Blizzard took parts of it and fed it to the dogs or something after he retook Thunder Bluff.

1 Like