I was more talking about the scenario rather than particular character.
We know that their faith in the light is basically unconditional so if Na’ru came and convinced them to spread their faith in the light to all of Dreanor…
Did Kil’jaeden’s plot spare the Orcs that outcome?
I have to wonder about the Eredar (and Draenei) and their origins sometimes. You rarely hear about other races on Argus. What if it’s not only the Burning Legion’s influence that turned the Eredar into a race of conquerers? What if this is actually in their peoples nature? Maybe Velen is aware of this and tries to stem it? Maybe that is why the Lightbound happened? Because Velen was not there to supress their need to conquer and dominate?
I think that, for the first time ever, I am giving you hearts ![:heart:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/heart.png?v=6" ":heart:")
Very bad.
Stahp, it hurts.
Ok, and how is this relevant to my indication that regarding orcs “we cannot apply our morality” but with tauren “we can apply our understanding”?
I compared the fact that orcs are fine to not have our standards applied to them but tauren are not fine with that. What does it have to do with WoD atrocity?
Because just as you find disingenuous to have to assume that Yrel and the Draenei are forgiving regarding what happened in WoD, players may feel the same when someone goes ahead and says:
When talking about how Baine shouldn’t be considered “spineless”.
You’re going completely off-topic and dodging my question…
Why can our morals and standard be applied to tauren but not to orcs?
The thing is, this isn’t a question of morality. Morals have nothing to do with why Baine is considered detrimental.
Baine is a leader that, regarding his own people, decided to punish them instead of the enemy. To defend the enemy interests while his people were getting killed, and that displayed zero empathy regarding the zandalari plea, when he argued peace or surrender to the guys that had just assasinated their king and raided their capitol.
This has nothing to do with moral, these are all bad leader qualities.
Tauren values aren’t based around the concepts of “letting your own die”, “defending your enemies over your citizens”, and " having zero empathy with your allies". This isn’t about comparing certain traits with RL standards.
No amount of “peace craving” is enough to excuse inactivity regarding the deaths of the people you command, while actively undermining the war effort of your own allies.
This is just judging some nefarious leadership.
You are applying our real world thinking here.
You are trying really hard here to paint these actions in the worst possible way.
Subjective.
Again - why can we judge Baine and the Tauren with these standards but orcish way of doing things cannot be judged?
Real world thinking? Do you think that there is some fictional world where any of these traits is considered positive for leadership?
No. Its certainly what it happened.
What would you call a leader that punished his own when they decided to fight back after having their home destroyed?
What would you call the situation, when a leader is more concerned about making amendments with the enemy, to the point he neglects a whole warfront, and even kills his own allies to do so?
How would you describe a leader that argues for surrender over the corpse of an assasinated ally?
Are you saying any of the above is to be considered part of the tauren culture???
Why don’t you understand that Draenei maybe have a “cultural trait” that makes them forgive most of the atrocities people commit with them?
No, he made a mistake but you are judging him too harshly.
When he decided to bring Derek back to his family, he believed he was doing something to redeem the Horde. Sylvanas has gone too far, and she had damaged the core values and the integrity of the Horde, again. He knew that this was something he could set right, something he could control.
By delivering Derek back, he made a point: that there are still people among the Horde who do not want this war, and that they are still capable of showing mercy. That there is another side Anduin and Jaina are not seeing. This is not “bowing to the Alliance”, as some like to call it, this is showing that the Horde is still worth something. And, in time, that will pay out.
You must understand that he is still young and inexperienced. Leaders who are like that tend to make mistakes like these. It was a bad call, but that does not make him a bad leader. I, for one, appreciate Baine trying to show the Alliance that the real Horde is still there, and that not everyone is blindly following Sylvanas. I won’t deny that it doesn’t make him a traitor, or that he made a mistake, but I will support him for is integrity.
if my tear ducts didn’t dry and rot away, i’d be crying for you in applause.
nowadays, it seems in order to be loyal to the horde you love, you have to be a bloodcrazed maniac that knows nothing at all except when is the next alliance head is there to chop.
regardless if he’s being a traitor or not, he’s doing something to help preserve the horde’s identity. i would have preferred it if he did help those people in the barrens, by at least sheltering them regardless and letting them walk away to fight if they wanted to, but trading away derek was hardly done out of purposeful loss.
He might be doing so while the Alliance is attacking his lands in Mulgore and the Barrens. While fellow orc soldiers are dying in both Arathi and Stormsong.
And Forsaken comrades are hunted down in Ashenvale.
He kills a whole crew of Forsaken and Horde sailors to escape, and galvanises war effort by taking away the lone asset that could destabilise their enemies enough for them to win or turn this war for good.
He is gambling, just like Saurfang before him, on the Alliance mercy after this war. Regardless of how bad it worked in the past for his people, when Theramore carried out punitive expeditions against the Tauren just because what orcs where doing in the north (much like Night elves punished orc, for what a fraction of the Forsaken did at the Wrathgate).
This is bad leadership. Weakening your position further during war times is bad leadership.
You don’t argue for surrender or a truce while losing, as it makes you deal with it from a weak position, specially if your culture has ingrained concepts such as “Victory or Death”.
And this is just infuriating. Baine is about as young as Vol’jin. He is older than Anduin.
He is closer to Thralls age than Anduins.
Inexperienced? He lived the Cataclysm, Pandaria, Draenor, and the Legion campaigns. Room that had Anduin grow into his position.
Youth or inexperience aren’t valid excuses any more. Sorry for him if writers keep him stuck in that role, but at this point his flaws are just…bad leadership.
So either fix, or remove (temporarily or not) the character. And give the tauren a leader that knows how to defend their interests and stop having them being complete pushovers.
This is Cataclysm 2.0 for them. And even worse than excusing the enemy firebombing their own cities.
“Bad Alliance, how dare they fight back at agressors who invaded their lands!”
The Alliance never wanted this war.
Oh, come here you! /hug.
I know that at least Erevien is going to drink my blood for saying this, but Baine has only shown loyalty to his faction and friends… when his father was killed by Garrosh, he still remained in the Horde. When Garrosh refused to help him in retaking Thunder Bluff, he still remained loyal to him. When Theramore was about to get nuked, he remembered how Jaina helped him in the past, and did whatever he could to return that favour.
I think he basically proved that loyalty is more than what, as you already said, others might think it is.
He is not gambling anything. He knows that the position of the Horde will only strengthen. Anduin knows that there is more to the Horde than only Sylvanas’ leadership, I’m sure that Baine knows about that. I also think that he knows that Jaina still believes, somewhere deep inside of her, that the Horde is still worth existing. And how better can you prove it than risking everything to bring her Derek?
I think I covered this.
Just so we’re clear, this only takes around four years in-game I think, looking at how fast expansions pas in the Chronicles.
Too bad for you.
You are assuming that your SUBJECTIVE point of view is something obvious and set in stone.
Look at the these sentances. Now look at the way you describe what Sylvanas does.
Why can’t you finally answer my question for god’s sake!
I am asking why people say that orcs can’t have our standards applied but tauren can and instead of answering you are forcing Draenei down my throat!
Stop dodging the question. Draenei have nothing to do with it.
How?
Gamble. All of this sounds like gambling.
Last time Tauren argued for peace, they were punished. Regardless if they took part in the actions that were being punished for or not.
And? It’s the same amount of time that Anduin required.
For me? Bad for how Baine characters is considered amongst players.
No, I’m asking a genuine question. Any of that is considered good for leadership in any universe?
And?
I did. And then I asked another question.
One that showcases how this has nothing to do with cultural traits, or standards.
And the little it has to do with how race themselves are portrayed, serves to draw a parallel with the Draenei in WoD…which serves to exemplify a case you personally felt closer, regarding how agreed and established lore development, can be rather disingenuous.
And how even if Blizzard says “Oh yeah, Tauren are tooootally fine with it” becomes just as stupid regarding how they sucked with the invasion of their lands, as you think the Draenei behaved with Grom and forgives him at the end of WoD.
Again, because the Horde proves itself to be worth saving. As if someone like Jaina is willing to spare the Horde if she doesn’t see anything honourable. And she clearly changed her perception on the Horde after Baine returned Derek to her, as is evident from the datamined dialogue.
No, it’s taking a risk. Same as Sylvanas did when she burned down Teldrassil, when she even started the War of the Thorns.
You can live on absolute certainty. And if you don’t take a risk, or ‘gamble’, you’re not going to change anything.
And to be honest, Baine had good reasons to trust his own decision. He knows the character of Anduin and Jaina. If the Horde caught him, Derek would remain in Horde hands. If he succeeded, Derek would be in the hands of the Alliance but they’d know there are still honourable Horde members.
Yeah, Anduin is such a brilliantly written character, who already knows the best while only 18. /s
What’s the problem with flawed characters? The Tauren wanted him to lead them after he retook Thunder Bluff, I’m pretty sure they had good reason to believe he’s make a good leader.
No, too bad for you that you don’t like he’s still inexperienced? Too bad for others and you that you don’t like Baine.
Also, what do you mean by this?
This is pointless. These traits are NOT as you described them. You described them in the worst possible way and assume that your opinion (the way you named them) is objective.
I give up.
See above.
Also, I give up.
No, you didn’t…
Yes. With your opinions about the matter. Whatever, seriously, just forget it.
I give up.
Please, don’t reply to me anymore.
I asked where or how was I supposedly wrong and you didn’t answer.
No. See again what I said regarding leadership. Leadership isn’t cultural. It has some objective and detached traits and requisites.
You either meet them or not.
Last time this happened, after Pandaria, Genn still held enough grudges with them to start again attacking them. Even after a peace treaty. Even after some Horde leader revolted, fought, and deposed actively the ones that mistreated them.
Baine has zero reasons to trust this time will be any different.
That’s called gambling. Taking the risk of causing even more deaths to see if the Alliance feels like pardoning them.
You can change everything by fighting honestly and seriously in a war for the well-being of your faction. Instead of taking the risk of making a deal with the enemy with zero guarantees.
That in Baines case, they are turning out to be the only relevant trait of his character.
When was the last time he did something for Tauren alone? Complaining doesn’t count.