New tauren leader [spoiler]

I have not the time nor will to be dragged in another one of those. If you call his actions with the names of “defend the enemy interests”, “display zero emapthy” - then you are applying your own opinions to the naming of certain actions.

I said that already. Yet you imply I “didn’t answer”. So I answered. Again.

WHATEVR. I GIVE UP. BE PROUD.

“Objective traits” established by your subjective preferences.

Again - I GIVE UP!!!

I asked: “Why can we apply our standards to tauren but not to orcs?”
You replied with: A lenghty debate about Draenei and subjective opinions about leadership.

W h a t e v e e r.

I have no interest in continuing a debate about something I never asked for.

GOOD NIGHT.

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How else could somebody call killing your factions soldiers, negating the value of the Horde war campaign, and then talk about surrender or peace with the ones that killed a daughters father?

“Good leadership” entails a series of objective traits. Is it wrong to point that fact out?

I replied by saying that standards and cultural traits are rather irrelevant when judging what makes a good or bad leader. Regardless of race.

And yes, brought up the Draenei example. But not as some cultural comparison, but as a way to exemplify how even if Blizzard tells players that’s how things go, it doesn’t mean the situation is any less stupid.

Ranging from “Draenei are friends with Grom the genocidal”, to “ Tauren think Baine is a perfect leader after he sacrificed the Barrens, Taurajo, and further sabotaged their allies war effort because some moral qualm (to the point he started killing personally Horde soldiers)”

I… I don’t even know where to begin. And I don’t even know why this is relevant. First of all, the Tauren had absolutely nothing to do with this. This was between Tenn and the Forsaken. Second, this has nothing to do with Anduin nor Jaina. Genn didn’t have direct orders to attack the Banshee Queen. Third, Baine has nothing to do with Genn, since he is only an advisor and not as important in the Blood War, unlike Jaina, Anduin, Wyrmbane, etc.

So I don’t know what you’re trying to point out here, at least not with this example.

And again, without taking the risk, you don’t accomplish your goal. We can keep debating this, but it won’t change that I’d you actually want to make a difference ,you need to risk something.

The Horde will remain dishonourable, and will have no credibility in the eyes of Baine. If they win, the victory will be hollow and Sylvanas will still be Warchief. If they lose, the whole Horde loses since they did not give a signal some actually disagreed with Sylvanas, apart from Saurfang.

What about integrity, being loyal to your own ideas and values? Yeah, it took him a while, but now that he finally has something he can do about the situation, he is willing to stay true to his ideals…

When was the last time Mekkatorque did something for the Gnomes? When was the last time Lor’themar did something for the Blood Elves? When was the last time Rokham did something for the Darkspear Trolls? I have no idea, since Blizzard doesn’t focus on these races, just like the Tauren, but there is hardly any indication they were sitting and doing nothing for the last few expansions.

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That Baine is gambling on the Alliance keeping their part of the deal, or making up their minds regarding the Horde this time. And that they won’t break this truce or peace treaty with them or with their allies only because Baine shoehorns how “Good” he is.

There are ways to be honourable. First and foremost, if you don’t want Sylvanas,you do like Cairne. You change the Horde. You challenge her openly.

If they win with honourable ways, the victory won’t be hollow. And Sylvanas can be either influenced or removed from leadership.
And you won’t be weakening the Horde in the process.

Cairne was true to his ideals. Having Horde soldiers killed and acting behind the Hordes back to weaken and undermine their war effort, while soldiers from every of its races fight to survive this war, is nothing like the Tauren ideals.

Not talking about the race. Talking about the leader. He didn’t fight the Alliance that is currently sieging mulgore. He isn’t fighting in the Barrens. He isn’t aiding Rexxar, nor even challenging Sylvanas directly.

He decides once again, to act behind the Warchief back and again, take unilateral decisions that’ll make even more soldiers killed.
And all this has become a staple regarding each and every time he does anything at all.

Correcting an unhonourable mistake.

Not wanting to act as vile as the Scourge.

Rastakhan died because Sylvanas forced this war to erupt. Baine wants to save lives.

I see. Sylvanas can do no wrong. But Baine displays something called moral integrity.

There are other approaches to life rather than “emotionless pragmatism”. I find it odd than you are confused because of that.

Is good leadership the one that brings pragmatic results while being vile or the one that strives to uphold moral integrity?

You still act as if your subjective opinions were objective. I need Xiaopaw in this discussion.

And this is your subjective opinion.

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Rastakhan is to be killed by the woman who is the sister of the man Baine retreats Derek back to. Talanji now has every reason to dislike Baine if she wants to.

Baine and Saurfang washed their hands by being buttbuddies with the human leadership. The rest of the horde ain’t got this option.

But god forbid if she was mad at the one who forced this war, eh?

It’s more nad more annoying to see how the very existance of the concept of moral integrity is being denied in these discussion.

I get it. “Kill Alliance’”, “whatever means necessary!”, “someone doesn’t want our pragmatic war? Kill!”.

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This is not about their moral integrity but them asking for permission from king holy bones first before they decide to take action.

Good morning.

That obviously goes for every truce? Who knew that after the First World War, the Weimar Republic would wage war again? Or, in-game, who knew if Anduin and Sylvanas were going to keep their word during the meeting in the Arathi Highlands? Who knew that the Horde would remain “honourable” after Garrosh was removed from power, and the Alliance spared them?

Baine has, as I’ve already said twice, a clear enough picture of the High King and the Lord Admiral of Kul Tiras to know that they are most probably going to keep his act in mind.

I don’t really see what the problem is here. When you go on strike, you might lose your job or you actually get what you think you deserve. But for certain is that you don’t get anything if you don’t risk, or ‘gamble’ as you like to call it.

I’ll be honest, I was one of the first to actually say that Baine was acting spineless during the Siege of Lordaeron. But I don’t think that challenging Sylvanas to a Mak’gora would’ve solved anything. Sylvanas doesn’t care about Horde traditions, but she cares about remaining in power. She’s obviously not going to play fair if that’s what it takes to win. High chance Baine will die because he wants to fight honourably. I don’t really think that it helps a lot if he dies before the beginning of the war. Cairne at least knew that Garrosh was addicted to honour and old traditions, and would not cheat wilfully. Who knew that Magatha Grimtotem would poison Gorehowl? Speaking of risks…

I agree that I’d have wanted Baine to act more, or to at least show in his actions and not only in his words that he disagreed with Sylvanas. Both bad writing and Baine being indecisive. But this is what we get, and at least he’s doing something to remain close to his ideals.

After the Burning of Teldrassil and deploying the Blight at the Ruins of Lordaeron? Never.

The victory will be hollow once Sylvanas reaches for her true goals and kills all of Stormwind and raises them to become her personal army.

He is not weakening the Horde… again, he is showing that the Horde is worth saving.

I beg to differ. Tauren being dragged into a war they didn’t ask for, after committing genocide against a people whom they have studied with, even allied with for a long time, THAT is against EVERYTHING the Tauren stand for. Sylvanas should be absolutely ashamed of herself for doing this to the Tauren, after all Cairne did for her…

A High Chieftain who supports this war and continues to fight the Alliance while he damn well knows this war isn’t going anywhere isn’t worthy of being a High Chieftain.

To be honest, I have no idea what Baine is currently doing. He was doing what his Warchief wanted him to do during the War of the Thorns, and he was fighting alongside her during the Siege of Lordaeron. He is also in Dazar’alor, and I’m pretty sure he is not lounging around the City of Gold for two patches…

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This is exactly what I am talking about.

You refuse to acknowledge the fact that Baine wants to do what is morally right and you label everything he does with the worst possible names and explanations.

Lor’themar is a vile traitor. He almost rejoined the Alliance because he wanted to lick their boots. Just like his people begged to lick Humans’ boots during the Troll Wars.

Vol’jin was too afraid to oppose Garrosh on his own. When players threatened him that the Alliance won’t help him he started begging for our help because he wanted to bask in the glory of his betters.

See what I am doing here? The same thing you’re doing to Baine.

You refuse to acknowledge the fact that he displays moral integrity and does what he believes is best so you’re trying to paint him black.

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It won’t matter either ways. The rebellion won’t grow any further. Saurfang and Baine are the only ones. Gallywix has the biggest deal of all time with the Azerite war waging and Lor’themar made his intentions to the alliance clear to Alleria in their last meeting. Ji doesn’t care. Nathanos is deadly loyal. Whatever blizzard aims at it won’t work once N’zoth and old gods stuff happens.

Exactly, the only ones that won’t lick Sylvanas’ boots after all her atrocities, I agree with you.

Forgotten because plot. It would be difficult to write a compelling story of a PANDAREN being okay with all Sylvanas’ atrocities.

So Blizzard goes their standard way, when something is not outright easy. They ignore it.

He’d sell all the Horde the first chance he gets if he thought it a greater profit. He couldn’t care less when his own people die.

Debatable.

I still believe that having Nathanos go against Sylvanas is the best way of dethroning her without making Hordies cry that the Alliance meddles with their affairs,

Is to give us a “story” instead of a story.

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Will never happen. Afaik he only lifes cause Sylvanas. He is her personal lapdog.

Absolutely right!

The best way to gain profit right now is to keep the war going as long as possible. Gallywix wants to get the Azerite flowing for everyone and their war machines.

You forget the need for an exit plan when it inevitably ends. You can only keep your profits, if you stay on the winning side.

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Well Sylvanas didn’t force her to get the Horde to help her, with the Blood Trolls and all that good stuff, under teh premise of getting the Zandalari fleet.

A repeat offender of high treason? yea no

Also a thing about leaders, who have a very particular moral standing is that they tend to choose that over their people.

And the saying goes “Lok’tar Ogar”

Yup, It’s just that for Sylvanas death doesn’t seem to be an acceptable option. Lok’tar Ogar doesn’t mean “victory, no matter the price”. Indeed, a recurring critique of Saurfang and Baine is that they are willing to let some of their people die, for the fights they choose.

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The critique is that they choose to lose be it Saurfang in a battle or Baine in the war.

With some wierd hope that Aliance will spare them, for some reason after Teldrassil

A matter of perspective. You could just say that they are choosing a different fight from Sylvanas and going full “Death or Victory” on it.

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