Pet Battles in Visions of N’Zoth

(Kaivax) #1

Hello pet battlers!

We’ve seen some discussion around pet battle changes coming in Visions of N’Zoth, and we’d like to discuss those, as well as changes we currently have planned for a future content update.

The Weather Outside is Fight-ful

Weather effects have always been intended to slightly change the rules of pet battles. Sandstorm is great against pets that do weaker attacks, Sunlight is great for healing abilities, and Cleansing Rain is great for aquatic abilities. However, Mudslide and Blizzard both fell by the wayside in terms of being impactful or rule-changing outcomes. So in Visions of N’Zoth, both of these weather effects are being updated with new added effects in addition to their existing effects:

  • Blizzard
    • Now also increases all elemental ability damage by 25%.
  • Mudslide
    • Now also increases all critical damage dealt by 25%.

To be really clear about the Mudslide change: Critical strikes usually hit for 150% of normal damage. Mudslide will now increase that to 175% of normal damage.

We’ve also been thinking for a while that we should add a new weather type to the game, so Visions of N’Zoth will also introduce a new weather type: Toxic Fumes. This deals Dragonkin damage to the current enemy pet and applies the Toxic Fumes weather effect.

  • Toxic Fumes

    • Increases the duration of all hostile damage over time effects by 1 round.
    • All pets are considered Poisoned while Toxic Fumes is active.

Max No More

In Visions of N’Zoth, all of the new outdoor pet battle World Quests in Uldum and Vale of Eternal Blossoms will scale their level to match the highest level pet currently slotted on your team, instead of always being a level 25 enemy pet. This will also be the case for Nazjatar and Mechagon – all of the pet battle World Quests there are being updated. You can check them all out with a team of three level 1 pets!

Stat Changes

In Visions of N’Zoth, we’re also changing how percent-damage reduction abilities stack with each other. Currently, if you’re fighting a pet like Unit 17 in Mechagon (a Boss pet that passively takes 50% less damage), and Unit 17 uses Crouch, Unit 17 becomes immune to damage because the two 50% damage reduction effects are added to each other. In Visions of N’Zoth, the plan is to cap damage reduction at -75%. Using Unit 17 as an example, while Crouch is active, it will take 75% reduced damage instead of 100% reduced damage. This will smooth out the challenge with some enemy bosses.

Please note that abilities like Dodge or Deflection will continue to avoid all damage. Those will not be impacted by this change.

What the Future Holds

In a future update, we’re targeting a number of balance changes we want to make, which will amount to lowering the effectiveness of some pets and strategies. Again, these changes will not be happening in Visions of N’Zoth, but we wanted to give you ample warning time that changes are coming. While we don’t have specific numbers or details to share right now, here are some examples of abilities that we’re going to take a close look at:

  • Black Claw and similar abilities that increase damage taken by a flat amount.
  • Hunting Party and similar abilities such as Flock.
  • The Shattered Defenses debuff effect from abilities such as Hunting Party or Flock.
  • Any large percent-damage-taken or percent-damage-dealt buffs or debuffs.
  • Twilight Meteorite and similar long-cooldown damage-splitting abilities.
  • The Jar of Smelly Liquid ability.
  • Hermit Crab

Of course that last one isn’t an ability, but Hermit Crab incorrectly has a higher stat budget than it should, and it will have its stats reduced to bring it in line with other similar pets.

A goal we have when making many new pet battle World Quests or encounters is to create puzzles that players can counter and “solve”-- ideally with the option to use a variety of pets and tools to do so. When a few pets have such strong synergies that they can deal massive damage in just a few rounds and almost trivially beat these enemies, it becomes problematic. Do we make new challenges only beatable by the highest damage combos, or do we make them generally solveable and therefore immediately smashed by massive damage?

We don’t want to ruin the feel of combination abilities, so we aren’t going to make Black Claw no longer interact with Hunting Party or Flock, but we want to make sure these abilities are dealing appropriate damage. And we want to make sure that secondary effects such as Shattered Defenses are being accounted for with regards to balance.

When we have further specifics, we will be sure to let you know.

Changes coming in Visions of N’Zoth

Seems we’re saying goodbye to black claw + flock like we did to geyser + whirlpool in the past…


Fun detected, huh. Maybe then take a look at the insane damage enemy bosses can hit in ine round as well.


First reactions:

1. Weather.

I like the Blizzard buff. Chilled has never had the oomph that other weather effects had. Maybe my Tiny Snowman will get more play time!

Toxic Fumes sounds interesting, with its effect on DoTs, but maybe not interesting enough to be compelling.

The Mudslide change feels out of place. You bring a weather effect that synergises with your attacks. You bring Sandstorm when you have big hitters. You bring Lightning Storm when you have multihits. Mudslide? Very few abilities have a boosted base crit chance. Yes, I’d like to see my Servant of Demidos out more, but the best we could hope for would be more crit-buff-ability pets like Junglebeaks and Falcosaurs. It’s not terrible, but it doesn’t feel thematic, or widen gameplay a lot.

2. Scaling Battles

I’m not a fan of scaling anything, and I feel that the scaling of the BfA trainers dulled the BfA world quests, that you were constrained to make them less interesting by the need to provide the catch-up mechanism. However, given that the damage is already done for BfA, it’s not something I feel strongly about for 8.3. (But please don’t continue it into Shadowlands. Please.)

3. UnStacking Damage Reductions

I don’t understand why this is necessary. Unit 17 is easily enough beaten. There’s another one too, somewhere … in Argus? but it wasn’t a problem there either. Are there some other cases I’m not thinking of? some tameable pets?

Or is this in preparation for the Shattered Defenses changes to come?

4. Overpowered abilities.

Twilight Meteorite: as Chromie might say (did say? will say? it gets confusing!) “Here we go … again.” Glad to see this one gone!

Jar of Smelly Liquid: mm…maybe, but don’t be too tough on Wyrmy. He doesn’t deserve to disappear entirely.

5. Bleed and Stampede combos / Shattered Defenses

Yes, there are long overdue for a refactoring, but consider that the reason they are needed is the Boss buff. It was the ubiquity of the Standard Boss Buff that led you to keep adding more Shattered Defenses movesets in the first place. If you are going to halve our damage’s effect on bosses, we need a mechanism to double our output to compensate. I’m not sure how you can sensibly address the effect without also reconsidering the cause.

Stampede abilities are not a factor in PvP, because the lock-in is prohibitive, so it’s entirely a PvE issue.

This one sounds tough to get right. I really hope you do.

Perhaps some new and interesting variants of Boss buffs that don’t all rely on the same mechanic might shake up the PvE game? If you can take the opportunity to spice up some timeworn PvE oldies, that’d be great.

6. Any large percent-damage-taken or percent-damage-dealt buffs or debuffs.

Hmmm … Supercharge? Is the trusty Starlette rolling to the scrap yard?

And does “large percent-damage-taken” refer to the likes of Crouch?

More :thinking: needed on this one.

7. Hermit Crab


And while you’re slaving over the hot database, also fix Boghopper and Slimy Darkhunter, which are not as prominent, but equally over budget.

Bonus spreadsheet for nerds, illustrating the problem. All three have Base Stat budgets totalling 25.5, as opposed to the normal 24.

Species Hermit Crab Boghopper Slimy Darkhunter
Breed S/S S/S P/S
Health (Blue 25) 1400 1400 1664
Power (Blue 25) 284 284 261
Speed (Blue 25) 349 349 314
Breed H Points 0 0 0
Breed P Points 0 0 9
Breed S Points 20 20 9
Blue 25 factor (25*1.3) 32.5 32.5 32.5
Base Health Calc 8.000 8.000 9.625
Base Power Calc 8.738 8.738 7.131
Base Speed Calc 8.738 8.738 8.762
CalcBack Health 1400.000 1400.000 1664.000
Calcback Power 284.000 284.000 261.000
CalcBack Speed 349.000 349.000 314.000
BaseSum Calc 25.477 25.477 25.517
Base Health API 8.000 8.000 9.625
Base Power API 8.750 8.750 7.125
Base Speed API 8.750 8.750 8.750
CalcBack Health 1400.000 1400.000 1664.063
Calcback Power 284.375 284.375 260.813
CalcBack Speed 349.375 349.375 313.625
BaseSum API 25.500 25.500 25.500

(Remte) #7

These notes leave me a bit conflicted when it comes to the more generalised interpretation and I think it’s intentional. I do not mind that, though.

Many a concern described there has been voiced, scanned, bookmarked, chewed up, regurgitated and shaped into a sculpture of despair; as much as I want an Even Bigger Rework it’s about time to see these changes.
There indeed is a big power creep from 7.3.5 in particular, though perhaps linking everything I want would tickle Sha of Pride. :stuck_out_tongue: The previous post also summarised most of my issues with the bosses and playable pet stats and can’t find any more words at the moment.

I appreciate bringing up the weather topic, even if the samples seem to be a little arbitrary. I wonder if it’s a sign of similar subjects to come, such as racials.

Towards the scaling, I’ve got a feeling it’s been mildly restricting the opponents’ capabilities. The low level bracket on the player side seems also too underhanded (from total unusuables to powerhouses) to be employed “a is”, especially since it’s not something intended to be lasting.

(Rosqo) #8

Looks like positive changes for both pvp and pve.

Blizzard will become one of the better weather abilities shame its on a group of lackluster pets.

As already mentioned its an odd direction to go with mudslide. Outside of the Coastal Bounder it’s alot of work to even get a crit buff up that works with the weather. I’d much prefer a root effect to apply from the cast to reduce the viability of swap strategies.

Toxic Fumes looks to be an even more double edged sword that call lightning. Currently it will work very well with Great Sting, Poison Protocol, Leech Seed, Wrymy Tunkins, Fel-Afflicted Skyfin, Acidic Goo, Twilight Fire and Agony.

I don’t think scaling pet quests are necessary. It’s doesn’t take much to level up some pets these days.

I think the percentage damage change is a positive one. I never liked the additive percent values. Will this mean as players we can stack Celestial Blessing and Crouch now?

The change to black claw and similar abilities is predominantly aimed at the pve cheese strategy that was used for the majority of BFA tamers. I hope this also affects the Fel-Afflicted Skyfin as its a dominating pet at present in PVP.

The changes to stampede types of attacks that put up shattered defence is the second part of the cheese strategy so guess it was bound to also happen. I’d like Hunting Party and Falcosaur Swarm to be looked at especially closely considering the differing cds and hit chance.

I’d guess that Baal and the Explode abilities might be getting changed. I guess how they bypass mechanics is a bit silly.

Then we get to the important stuff first being Twilight Meteorite and similar. Let’s hope it includes Money Meteor, Great Cleave, Dreadful Breath, Great Sting and Poison Protocol. At present if you don’t run an aoe counter you are likely to have a tough game. This would be fine if there was alot of set up involved to get your aoe strategy off or a level of risk. Lil XT or Pheromones > fade > lightning are examples where it isn’t just mindless or one button. A player using Twilight Meteorite just has to use the ability and they’ve done fairly well, if they proc the racial then use Twilight Meteorite they’ve done really well and are likely to win. I don’t think there should be any abilities like that so I’m glad they are going to fix their mistake.

Jar of Smelly Liquid is over budget compared to Weakness which already makes it a puzzling one. What Jar and Weakness can do is keep up the 50% damage reduction 100% of the time when they are faster which is just broken. I’d hope they reduce the reduction to 25% and match the damage on these abilities. Hopefully they can look at Rake too as it’s like the worst version of this type of ability now by a long shot.

I will never understand why the Hermit Crab has such overbudget stats. There’s a few other pets that don’t fit the stat allocations too Boghopper and Darkhunter are already mentioned. I believe Mechanical Prarie Dog is overbudget as well. I would imagine that Remte can run off a list of the others with too much stats. Hopefully when the stats are changed the Hermit Crab retains it’s speed but looses power and health.

Would be nice to have some changes to healing strategies like Sunlight/Photosynthesis, Immolation with humanoid racial, Drain Blood, Wish and Nature’s Ward. These types of strategies most often end up in games neither player can win and each sit there for 10-15 minutes doing basically nothing. I don’t believe that dampening would be a suitable solution as it would just benefit the more hardcore healing strategy.

Edit: also please remove the speed element from the Righteous Inspiration buff so that a whole team doesn’t need to be specifically designed to counter it.

(Remte) #9

I would imagine that Remte can run off a list of the others with too much stats.

Well Gráinne’s brought that up too at some point. We all are an insistent bunch.
(Help! I need a geopolitically universal separator! :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:)

Pet Base Stats Dev Increments Base Total Dev Total
Boghopper 8,000/8,750/8,750 +000/+150/+150 +1.500 + 300
Hermit Crab 8.000/8.750/8.750 +000/+150/+150 +1.500 + 300
Slimy Darkhunter 9.625/7.125/8.750 +325/-175/+150 +1.500 + 300
Cinder Kitten 7.500/8.500/8.500 -100/+100/+100 + 0.500 +100
Crypt Fiend 6.750/8.750/9.000 -250/+150/+200 + 0.500 +100
Mechanical Prairie Dog 8.250/8.250/8.000 +050/+050/+000 + 0.500 +100
Tiny Blue Carp 7.500/8.500/8.500 -100/+100/+100 + 0.500 +100
Mechanical Cockroach 8.250/8.000/8.125 -050/+000/+025 + 0.375 +075

That’s all, I think, not counting the chosen specials. Did not look up the new pets. I doubt there are any.
EDIT: LOL thanks, will add that!

And yes the healing’s been mentioned even back at the end of the WoD. But I don’t want to call in a certain person. :stuck_out_tongue:


The +0.5 overbudget pets don’t bother me as much, but if we’re fixing those we should probably fix the Mechanical Cockroach, a +0.375 overbudget pet, as well, to make it all clean.

Of course, don’t mess with the in-joke irregularities, Peddlefeet, Zoom, Plushie! :slight_smile:

(Rosqo) #11

They could fix the hit chance on some of those outlier abilities such as Banana Barrage and Bone Barrage. I know Moth Balls was stealthy changed with Bfa release to let hit chance effect all hits so it would be cool if this applied to these two now.

A duration on Shieldstorm shields like the tooltip suggests.

It would be good if all the always first abilities had the same speed modifier so in a face off they are slightly more logical. A higher modifier for defensive abilities would make sense.

(Remte) #12


A bit more about the weather…

What bugs me out about them in general is how their userbase range differs from weather to weather.
For example, Arcane Winds and Mudslide are on premise irrelevant to critters (all for AW, enemies for MS) unless “bonus damage under AW”/critical strike is involved, while Lightning Storm is unusable without mechanical abilities or DoT/team damage.
Other weather effects seem to have more impact because they affect more basic features which everyone can be expected to use (e.g. healing).


A damage increase to elemental abilities seems strong considering that mechanical opponents usually are extremely vulnerable against them. But as elemental abilities themselves are spread between all the families it takes the niche out of the effect. Maybe make the bonus 10% like Moonlight?

I agree this little bonus to Mudslide is a bit unclear without more diverse providers, both of the weather and the critical strike effects. And I am not sure what should be the direction of the latter!

Toxic Fumes seems both situational and strong at once, though its purely offensive character might be discouraging to some. Rosqo’s mentioned some implications already.
Could I only suggest the damage of the ability to be Beast, to differentiate it from both Scorched Earth and any other weather trigger?


As various abilities with a bonus to weather/status effect have been employed, they do them some justice but still remain very isolated. #Chilled#, it seems, was not enough. I can see the weather references remain not very popular due to complaints about the elementals being beaten with Dreadful Breath or Surge of Light just like everything else. What could be an obfuscated bonus to some weather effects, though? “Can’t be affected by crowd control” is too wide. An offensive buff to max health bonus? Draining abilities have already got this. Maybe more multisourced damage with Magic and Mechanical components? This all assuming only the weathers exist as they have been.

For various gimmicks yet to come, I would welcome incorporating an immunity to forced swap without rooting, aswell as more object management such as bonuses to dispelled/remaining ones, placement prevention and fixing overcap crash.

(Rosqo) #13

Yeah I understand what you mean with not all weather types being equal and its actually bugged me for some time. I think it would be beneficial if each weather had abilities that pair either with it like Surge of Light and Photosynthesis or can directly combine with the effects Darkness/Nocturnal Strike or Conflag/Scorched Earth. I think Darkness has the best benefit with existing abilities and least downside on the offensive team. Usually each player has 5 or 6 chances to miss but with the always hit when Blinded modifier it can be 3 chances to hit vs 5/6. Obviously by removing the 10% hit reduction it would remove this issue albeit nerf Elementals.

I think that Blizzard was under used to an extent due to pets that have the weather abilities. Even if there were a few different half decent pets that used Blizzard people might use it more. With this change as soon as there is a stronger Blizzard pet there’s definitely going to be balance concerns. I’m excited to try Snowbold Runt with the increased throughput especially with the Critter weak damage it takes.

Mudslide needs some abilities that actually interact with the weather or to a lesser extent the rooted effect. At the moment it’s just a CD ability that you have to take on the occasional pet. The weather effect rarely is the reason you take this ability. Adding crit damage increase doesn’t really help any but one of the pets this is on. Possibly adding a flat 25% crit chance may make it more attractive when you could stagger abilities to be active during weathers duration. It would have the double edged sword element of most weather effects but one team would be set up to utilise it.

Toxic Fumes being a Beast attack is a good idea. I have been told on ptr that the interaction with Agony works in an odd way. Basically instead of the additional tick doing the maximum amount it actually resets to the first and lowest value. Other than that it looks pretty interesting.


Well, if we’re getting into bugs, irregularities, tooltip inaccuracies, Shadowlands will be delayed quite a bit, fixing all that! :slight_smile:

We have lived with them. We can live with them. There are just two that bother me:

  1. That animation hang on some abilities like Lift-Off and Surge.
  2. The disappointed “Battle finished” failure message when you have WON a PvP battle.

Both are so frequent as to be really annoying.

I saw a suggestion for Mudslide on the US thread I think could be worked into something both thematic and gameplay-worthy. Replace the no-swap effect with a smaller Minefield effect. When a pet enters the front, let it slip, taking damage about equal to a basic attack.

I still haven’t figured a mechanism to reduce the effect of bleed & stampede strats without doing more damage than it’s worth. I still think the answer lies in the boss design more than the pet design.

I wouldn’t support going overboard on trimming pets and abilities. I still feel that the changes to Howl, removing its partnership with Flurry in foxes, and Frog Kiss, negating the ramp-up mechanic, were bad calls.

(Rosqo) #15

They changed Moth Balls to be modified by hit this expansion so it would make sense to bring the other abilities in line especially with more pets having abilities that are affected. They know the fix so there is little work in this one.

Shieldstorm is actually an overpowered ability so aligning the actual ability with the tooltip makes sense.

RI is, has and will continue to be an issue. Removing the speed element opens up how to play versus it without a specific counter.

Bringing all speed modifiers into line is more Qol than anything else and as you have said is something you can live without but its a not straightforward for new players.

The abilities hanging was an major issue a while back but this hasn’t been a relevant problem for some time. Have you ruled out this isn’t an issue on your end?

This is an issue that most players won’t even notice. If you are consciously looking for it then you would notice it.

That would likely be too strong when paired with an aoe pet then used as a sweeper due to the 9 rounds on the weather, a basic hit is still around 300 damage.
There is already a potential wombo combo with the Mudslide weather with the 25% extra crit damage. Its just if 25% extra critical damage is enough or if an actual flat crit % buff would be better.

Frog Kiss and Howl will be about 4 years ago once this goes live. Going overboard on changing abilities is the last thing that happens in Pet Battles much to its detriment.
Creating new dynamic metas with a wide range of viable options should be much more regular than currently. Doom Bird strategies and TCS have been dominant for way to long it creates a stale environment.

(Remte) #16

Wrapping up a full wishlist will take… long. Not impossible, but needs more permanence than a patch forum thread I am afraid.

Thinking of talking about that mystery DoT but not tonight.

The incoming dungeon is supposed to showcase some of topics mentioned for later but so far still remains narrow when it comes to available solutions. One boss in particular seems to be baiting towards one specific ability, and I can assume this opportunity could be taken away in later builds. The problem is, any way to smart it out is partially prevented by force swap ability having slightly unpredicable results due to its health-based character combined with unknown incoming damage.

EDIT: this is counterproductive to the current buff and other implications but what about #Mudslide# reducing damage from volcano, traps, rockets, cyclones, mines, bots, sons and yes turrets (don’t ask about the spores)? While decoys and barriers have only one charge. The first part would affect elementals while the other not. Or are people really as fed up with full negatives as I think?

(Rosqo) #17

I think there is too much value combining the increase of 25% elemental ability damage in combination with abilities that benefit from the “chilled” debuff.

Just for reference for the numbers below a basic attack is around 20-21 baseline, Thunderbolt does 33 baseline and at present Twilight Meteorite does 50 baseline damage.

Call of Winter - 9 damage to each pet, 4 extra if Chilled. If you buff this by 25% it’s a total of 49 damage team wide on a 3 round CD.

Howling Blast - 25 damage to front line pet, 5 extra per pet if Chilled. If you buff this by 25% it’s a total of 50 damage on a 3 round CD.

Ice Lance - 15 damage, 10 extra if Chilled. If you buff this by 25% it’s 31 spammable damage with a decoy/bubble breaker.

I kinda think that these values are a bit too much. The pets that have these combos despite being fairly average will be soo powerful, too powerful.

If this goes live in its present state you will create a meta purely around Blizzard.

Hopefully you will be reviewing this buff and scale it back to 10% or at a push 15%.


- Animation hang:

First of all, I’m not sure how it could be a problem on my end. If you present a hypothesis, I will test. I doubt it has anything to do with the angle at which I hit the keys.

You are right when you say it

for some time, but it never quite went away. We still see stutters in Surge, Powerball, Lift-Off, that are not full hangs.

So I tested, with Surge, on live and on 8.3. First, against the Icespines in FFR, so about 14 Surges per battle over 6 battles. I got zero hangs in either.

Now in Nazmir, wth Surge, on live and on 8.3. Against the aquatics in the inlet. On the PTR, 6 battles yielded 4 hangs (of ~80 Surges, so about 5%). On live, I got none during the 6 battles, but I did a bunch more (maybe 10?) and finally got two - that happened on a sloped rock, which may or may not be relevant.

I probably would never have noticed this, except that the PTR decided to remove a third of my pets during the character copy, and I seem to have spent more time trying to refresh and re-copy than actually doing any testing. I noticed the return of the animation hang when capturing some pets I needed.

- The disappointed “Battle finished” failure message when you have WON a PvP battle.

Well, it bothers me. Given how much time you spend on PvP, I can well believe you are used to it, and past worrying about it, but that is my request.

- Buff/Nerf Cycles

They are 4 years ago. And I still remember them as bad decisions that had a lasting impact. (Howl may have been almost-forced; I concede that one is arguable. Neutering Frog Kiss instead of fixing resilience was unarguably bad.)

You and I have gone more rounds on frequent buff/nerf cycles than Rocky. We’re not going to convince each other now. But this feedback benefits from including both views.

(Rosqo) #19

Howl essentially had to be fixed due to it being the defacto strategy for a large amount of content. It’s not exactly the best fix considering the ability has lost pretty much all its value but Blizzard will always target overused things eventually.

I agree that resilience should have been changed rather than the abilities and chain stuns are still possible with Volcano or Wolpertinger.

Because having a meta that lasts years is damaging to Pet Battles. It results in less participation. People using the same comps all expansion gets people fed up. Casual and experienced players don’t like having to use 5-6 pets on all their teams or just get beaten by people that do. Even if there was 20 top tier pets which is still under 2% of all the pets available it would be much better.
Not correcting issues such as Hermit Crab or Twilight Meteorite immediately doesn’t make any sense. The handful of changes they should be making every content patch allow problem pets or abilities to pile up which they can then only choose a handful to change. This incoming 25% buff to Blizzard will likely create a new meta that requires this weather to be viable but we will probably have to wait a whole expansion for it to be fixed.

(Remte) #20

While I have nowhere enough patience for making a decent use out of PTR, I’d like to tell what I’ve noticed about the recent stat changes to new NPC-s.

The single pets, whose main feature remains the elite protection, don’t seem to have changed much, because let’s be honest, in such cases it’s been all about the length of the fight.
Didn’t want to get through all the dungeon teams yet (refreshing for variable parts) but at least in my case the significance of the changes seems to have depended on how the enemy’s moves were approached. For example, I’ve got a part where I reacted directly to the initial rotation – and this one stayed fairly unchanged, but the later parts were more damage-oriented, and the changes (speed in particular) helped me to choose different pets which look less contrived in that place.

The opponent I mentioned in the previous post… well, my (I am not aware of any other but one mentioned back in the old build) “hard mode” attempt changed its status from “absolutely hopeless” to “reminiscent of some Argus fights” and still is incredibly tricky. I like how much I have done, though still kind of lacking, in a “I would like a pet with slightly different stats” way… but I don’t limit myself only to make wishes later, eh?

I’ve reported it but there’s also an issue in 8.3 Uldum where there are no secondaries joining the wild pets.


I was just wondering about the whole nerf-thing, so I did some numbers.

I now think we don’t have a Black Claw problem, or a Flock problem, or a Stampede or Swarm or Inflation problem.

I think we have an Ikky problem.

I knew Ikky was the thing, of course, especially with its racial helping it get ahead, but I did not realise just how much more damage than the traditional glass connons it was delivering.

Here are some numbers I didn’t quite believe myself when I first saw them, so - press F for Doodle! - I went and checked them. There are rounding differences, so don’t get hung up on the single digits column. I have also made some assumptions based on typical battle conditions, like an Ikky will probably get off only one Talon after the Flock. Yes, I know battles can go differently; they can also involves stuns and debuffs that screw up the plan; I chose what I consider a reasonable scenario.

The first table shows the results of a DoT with an initial hit + a Stampede + 2 Rounds of Shattered Defences:

Hit +DoT Bleed + Stampede Infected Squirrel H/P Blighted Squirrel H/P Experimental Roach Sharptalon Hatchling
Basic Hit Damage 48 42 42 69
First Round Hit 113 185 216 172
Added Round Damage 113 77 77 86
First Round Damage 257 203 203 379
Second Round Damage 514 406 406 586
Third Round Damage 514 406 406
Total Stampede Damage 1398 1200 1231 1137
Damage per round av. 349.5 300 307.75 379
Potential 2-round Follow-Up 452 740 812 1034
Expected Follow-Up 452 740 812 1034
Total Damage 1850 1940 2043 2171
Total Rounds 6 6 6 5
Damage per round av. 308.3 323.3 340.5 434.2

The second table shows the typical Zandalari Black Claw + Hunting Party attack:

Black Claw + 2 Rounds Anklerender S/S Anklerender P/P
Basic Hit Damage 59 72
Added Hit Damage 118 144
First Round Damage 531 648
Second Round Damage 1062 1296
Total Stampede Damage 1593 1944
Damage per round av. 531 648
Potential 2-round Follow-Up 444 540
Expected Follow-Up 444 540
Total Damage 2037 2484
Total Rounds 5 5
Damage per round av. 407.4 496.8

The final table shows Ikky and the most recent additions:

Black Claw + 3 Rounds Ikky Foulfeather Chitterspine Skitterling S/S Chitterspine Skitterling P/S
Basic Hit Damage 51 44 44 48
Added Hit Damage 136 118 118 129
First Round Damage 561 486 486 531
Second Round Damage 1122 972 972 1062
Third Round Damage 1122 972 972 1062
Total Stampede Damage 2805 2430 2430 2655
Damage per round av. 701.25 607.5 607.5 663.75
Potential 2-round Follow-Up 1504 584 590 648
Expected Follow-Up 752 292 295 324
Total Damage 3557 2722 2725 2979
Total Rounds 5 5 5 5
Damage per round av. 711.4 544.4 545 595.8

An average damage of 300-400 per round is not excessive, especially for a pet intended as a glass cannon. The P/P raptors do go higher, but they’re P/P for a reason.

But seeing just how much more damage has been added by power creep into Ikky and the new pets made me gasp.

My sense is that the original pets - the raptors, undead squirrels, and others that deal even less damage - are fine, and


but the most recent crop need their wings clipped.


Further thoughts.

Pet battles may have been intended as puzzles, but they are treated as puzzles by a tiny minority of battlers.

I don’t know how many of the people who do PvE battles regularly are botting them with the (legal) tdScript addon, but judging from the comments on Xu-Fu’s, I’m guessing half. (That’s half of regular battlers - there are about twice as many irregulars, I think.)

Pretty much all the irregulars and the rest of the regulars are using their own fingers, but just parroting strats they copied from Wowhead or Xu-Fu’s.

While I do enjoy solving battles for the first time myself, when they’re interesting enough to deserve the word “solve”, I’m quite happy to parrot away like the rest of them once the puzzle is solved.

This being so, just how much benefit is there to a disruptive nerf in PvE anyway, when the expected result is just a lot of visits to Aranesh’s server to download the new answer sheet?