Yeah. I may not necessarily like it in my thread, but I know that it’s just how the forums be. As long as it doesn’t drown out the relevant discussion, it’s all Gucci to me.
That being said, an interesting suggestion was made to me by Ixirar, which I’m pretty keen on. How would people feel if I changed this up a little and turned it into an IC document and repository of information that characters themselves can make reference to?
That is…the exact point I was making.
I reckon that could be interesting, but how would you represent it? a document available on Argent Archives, or Discord, or a GHI item? You’d have to make it accessible to everyone you talk to, Like I mean I’d visit an AA site, Discord is a heck of a faff for one item, and GHI can get in the sea. Making it an IC document is a brilliant idea, but you’d just need to find the right avenue to pitch it. The Fundamental idea? Awesome. You’d just need to find a way of couching it, who is it written by? Do they have any bias? Do they regard Loa Worship, for example, as a perfectly valid religious creed, or as savage pagan idolatry. Good luck with getting everyone on the server to agree with what you write, but that is no reason not to write it, as it could be an IC thing for people to discuss “It’s utter nonsense!” “But, they do make some good points” “Well, yes, some, but…” Go for it, sounds cool!
Literally no one called them heretics, you brought that part up
I think what Brigante meant is that he was using them as an example of how the term heretic can be misused. The confusion is that he framed his argument in a way that suggested that Necrons/Orks/whoever are referred to as heretics in the 40K setting, which was maybe/probably not his intention.
It definitely wouldn’t be Discord or GHI. AA, the forums, or some kind of Google Document intended as an IC document are the most likely options.
How dare you.
Yes, you are absolutely spot on in terms of what I meant.
Yeah, I mean given the sort of characters that would make it a focal point of their characters belief, I reckon a shared Google Docs thing is your go-to. Its easy to keep open in the background, its not constantly beeping and getting updated at you, yet it can be added to by the author, and expanded upon. I mean the thing with WoW is that you do have the interesting situation where some faiths are just weird. I mean if you looked at Spain in the 1600’s and England in the 1600’s, both would describe themselves as ‘Christian’, but they weren’t exactly pals. The same is true in WoW. The State religion of Stormwind is that of The Light. The State religion of Silvermoon is that of The Light, Yet still, those two states wage enthusiastic war on each other. As in our world, Religion is not a unifying factor (As sadly The Troubles in Northern Ireland show us to this day). It -can- be, but isn’t enough on its own.
Look at the Alliance. (And I’m talking State Religions, not ‘Every X Worships Y’)
Humans: The Light.
Dwarves: The Light.
Night Elves: Elune, so a totally different religion with no link.
Gnomes: Kinda Atheist but with some following the Light.
Worgen: The Light.
Draenei: The Light, but not the same way as everyone else does (Oddly, that -is- a definition of Heresy ![:smiley:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/smiley.png?v=6" ":smiley:")
)
The Lightforged Draenei: Same as the Draenei but ramped up to 11 (Not sure how that works)
The Dark Iron Dwarves: Kinda the Light? -ish?
The Void Elves: I…I just don’t know where to start…Umm, the Light, then Void, but do they actually worship it? But can they follow the Void whilst still maintaining their original faith? Lets just go with Atheist.
Tushui Pandaren: Actually nothing. Pandaren do not worship -anything- not even the August Celestials.
That’s a massive mix of creeds and faiths, only a few of which coincide.
It gets even worse when you look at the Horde.
Orcs: Ancestor reverence and Shamanistic creeds, so importance upon the elements. No central Religious figure.
Trolls: Obvious one, The Loa. Of which there are plenty. I love the Troll system of worship.
Tauren: The Earth Mother (so sort of a Gaia figure) and to a lesser extent her two eyes constantly chasing each other through the skies, An’she and Mu’sha aka the Sun and the Moon (Which forgets the fact that Azeroth has two moons, but never mind). That’s a very enshrined and definite religious system, along with the Trolls system, I think that is the best explored, in game.
Forsaken: Shadow. Its great. It is the Opposite of Light, which as the opposite of Life, being Undead, makes a hecktonne of sense. Is it a thing though? Do they-really- believe, or is it a power source? I want to think it is, I want my Forsaken to actually be a man of faith, as twisted as it may be, but anyway, that’s a unique one, that’s unique to the Forsaken, and probably -because- of what they are.
The Blood Elves: Easy, they’re either egotistical a$$holes (Yes, I totally count my character as one of those) or they worship The Light, in the same way as Humans and Dwarves.
Goblins: See the cheap answer would be to say “moolah!” or “Money!” but actually, it ain’t that simple. Their faith is ‘The Light’. Now before people go “Err, no, Money is of primary importance to them” Look up the concept of ‘Indulgences’. You could literally -buy- your way into God’s good graces. You could -buy- exemption from sin. Up until 1576 you could throw money at a sin, and it is no longer a sin, or it is, but you get a free pass.
Goblins actually worship The Light, just with a very mercantile slant, I’ve always said it, they’re Italian City States in all but name, they even call themselves Cartels! That’s where the word comes from…
Zandalari: Loa worship.
Mag’har: Ancestor worship.
Huojin Pandaren: Atheism.
That’s a lot of religious belief to cover, I mean that is one heck of an ambitious project you have set yourself there. Maybe do it as separate treatises, ‘The Light’, ‘The Loa’, ‘The Ancestors’ etc etc. I mean it sounds awesome, and I would love to give it a read, but its a lot of work.
Don’t forget the holy prayer of the Wild Gods
Ashamane, hear your followers words and grant me f*cking strength to tear these apart, and Ursoc give me to obltierate them.
I think an AA document, or google docs would work best. And to keep it objective it could be said that the post comes from some ‘neutral’ source, who would be objective on the matter. Like an archaeologist, or explorer.
I’d go with Disciplinarians, if we are to attach a label which summarizes them. Unless you have a source where they denounce any belief in the existence deities and higher powers of the setting, of course, as is my impression of the Atheist inclination.
You are correct in the Void Elf take on the Void not being one of faith however. It is a tool to be wielded by the right hands. Theirs.
Thank you, that -is- the phrase I was looking for. Yes, It is belief in a credo of behaviour, not a deity/Philosophical belief as such.
Like how the opened that Little box that almost made 'em go all bonkers.
Yeah, I ain’t trustin’ 'em with that.
Sounds like you’ll need to sleep with one eye open.
Not that it will matter. ![:smiling_imp:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/smiling_imp.png?v=6" ":smiling_imp:")
Smash? We can smash, I don’t mind.
I have fun gadgets we can use, as long as you bring the tentacles.
Gnomes do have some degree of titan worship, referencing Mimiron in their exclamations and their fascination with titanforged races, it’s clear that Mimiron is a mythical figure to them whom they hold in high regard. They aren’t overtly religious, but if you shed the strictly theistic definition of “religion” that has been used to describe European history, I’d argue they do have some things that resemble it.
Worgen also have druidic traditions similar to real world celts and it seems to me the light isn’t featured as prominently in their culture for this reason.
Dark iron dwarves historically also had fire cult worship of e.g. Ragnaros
For void elf beliefs I’d argue we should look to Alleria, it is probably the least theistic of all the racial convictions and from what I can tell they don’t revere the light anymore as it has abandoned them
As for the pandaren, both the ones on the turtle and the ones from pandaria show signs of religion in their respective cultures. The turtle ones are separated from the Celestials so obviously worship of them has faded, but they still have e.g. the ancestor forest which is clearly a religious phenomenon. The turtle itself and the guy who initially sailed out on it (forgot the name) are also to some extent mythical figures that form the basis of some sort of mythical androgony. Presumably, if their culture was fleshed out more, we would also see some sort of eschatology centered around the turtle.
As for the ones from Pandaria, they have pilgrimages to sites of religious significance - the celestial temples, the vale of eternal spring and the peak of serenity are all clear indicators of religious life in the continent, and all the other races have their own mythologies that would no doubt form the basis of religious life as well.
All of these races aren’t called heretics in 40k, it’s xenos.
But besides, if these races practiced a faith or religion that conflicted with the norm of the Imperium, the term heretic or heresy still applies.
Pearl of Pandaria goes into detail about the Spirit Festival which is the biggest festival of the year where they revere all spirits, both ancestral and elemental. It takes place roughly few weeks before Brewfest.
Eeeehhh, that’s really not religion.
As I said, that depends on your definition of religion, which by no means is a trivial matter.
I study religion (read: not theology) at uni and some of the theories we use would definitely be able to find traits of religion among the gnomes. Especially so with Mechagon out. Certainly not overt religion, mind you, but religion doesn’t have to be overt to exist.
Ixirar the theology student in my thread smh…
But generally speaking, things like spirits - in the Orcish case - are a bit indistinct. What I’m going to focus on is distinct and individual deities. It’s not going to be a study of religion exactly, but rather figures who are or could be subject to reverence and worship.
This is very much inspired by D&D and the myriad of divine pantheons we see there.
In which case I maintain Mimiron is a candidate for examination - especially with the emergence of Mechagon.