Agreed, seeing how my dps chars get tanking gears and my tanks get dps gears, yes very frustrating up to a point that i no longer feel like playing or bother at all with emissaries, not all the time but it has happened.
Plus, i can’t believe that ppl still believe in RNG, imo currently there’s no such thing as RNG on gear drops or gear from emissary boxes or even benthic gear.
Those are catchup mechanics for alts to be able to do world content. Not for you to obtain bis gear from. If you want to target items go to heroic and mythic raids.
There are no RNG stats anymore, that was WoD.
You just have every stat combination available and complain about it. Because having the option of min maxing is apparently a bad thing.
Once again, there are no unknown stats. The Benthic items have specific stats. The M+ cache have items with specific stats across all dungeons. Even the PvP items have specific stats.
The caches just has all of them available within their respective pools, but you will never get a “Bloodfeaster Belt”, which normally drops in Underot, with stats different than Haste+Mastery.
Same goes for Benthic items. “Akana’s Reefstrider Footwraps” will always come with Haste+Mastery+stronger crits unique effect. You can never get the unique +critdmg effect in Leather boots with other stat combinations.
People quit for all kinds of reasons, the themes can generally be thrown into a few buckets though.
Whats this about people joining because of lootboxes? Are you being intentionally dense and edgy or do you genuinely think its a likely possibility?
As to the vid, even though its not exactly the same (hence why you dismiss it) - there is a lot of cross over to wow, and thats not great. How you can’t see this is beyond me. Then again, I guess to work these business models need the unthinking “sheeple” to follow without question.
The stats on the items may not change but the item appearing does.
It’s not as simple as targeting Bloodfeaster Belt in 10 because we all know it can be higher than 430 to be highest ilevel (and grab a socket or tiertery) so instead you’re reduced to targeting the dungeon in the hope it drops in the hope it titanforges the way you want it to. Similarly hoping the mythic chest drops it and it TFs up.
So whilst you can target it kind of, you can no longer work steadily for that bis you can only work steadily for the chance of it. This is a massive time increase over previous pre TF where you’d target bosses alone and put faith in drop chance RNG, but know within a month or so you’d see your piece. You could go the entire expo without seeing your truly bis this expo and I think that’s what people are referring to. It’s not a pain because it’s hard it’s a pain because it has nothing to do with skills and everything to do with multiple layers of luck. You can’t even push stupidly high keys for a higher chance of TF occurring which would make some sense.
I mean I don’t even have anything against tfing itself but I can see why people are saying it’s a contrived endgame gearing model because it asks less of skill and more of time which is a model that arguably suits those who benefit from our time in the game. If you make money based on people being here for months back to back you’d probably prefer an endgame gearing model that may well take them 6 months or more to complete than one they xpuld achieve in 3 months of focussed targeting because that’s twice as much revenue and the promise that it “may happen next time” is an addictive lure that keeps people coming back.
well he is not wrong in this
look how many people stopped playing wow because raiding became way to hard over the years compared how it was in vanills - wolk
It looks to me that you don’t understand what you’re talking about. This isn’t a new argument, but adding RNG elements instead of “soft currency” does not affect the average time required to obtain whatever you wish to obtain.
Currencies don’t have any intrinsic “speed of acquisition” and claiming that “they make them RNG instead of currency based in order to slow your progress” is really dumb.
Furthermore it’s funny to see this kind of claim these days because in the same time we have people that complain we get too much gear, that we gear up too fast and gear is thrown at us left and right.
Seriously which one is it?
Lastly do you really think that blizzard studied that particular video and proceeded with a faithful implementation of those principles? a guide made for F2P moblie games mind you.
Yes many games use deceitful and predatory practices to squeeze money of you but do you honestly can’t tell the difference in business model between something like Dungeon Keeper mobile and World of warcraft?
There may be thousands of videos and thousands of workshops all proclaiming similar business practices.
The elements from the video are present in modern day WoW, again… it’s hard for me to believe you can’t put 2 and 2 together. Trying to get me to talk about whether or not Blizz “saw this exact video” is foolish, and that’s a silly argument to make.
You don’t have to be a mechanic to know the car broke down – similarly, you can figure out a thing from more than 1 source, especially when it’s a common business practice.
It appears you haven’t given this much thought.
You genuinely believe that RNG and a badge system are providing the required items at the same pace? You’re joking surely?
Soft currencies have precisely that – a calculable rate of acquisition, and with a finite number of them required to complete a collection.
It’s in the very definition that one may get unlucky with RNG and never get the slot + stats combination.
Let me give you a concrete example of something I experienced personally…
In WoD there were many PvP set pieces you could buy that all had diff secondary stats on them, so you could pick and mix, customize the build you wanted. There was this fun build for arcane mage where you just stacked crit and used this crystal’s AoE to cheese an enemy team. It was usable in arena. It was a fun thing to do.
It took me a short amount of time to get the currency (I was also stockpiling some of it) required to gear my char for that fun cheese to experiment.
Now imagine not having vendors… and you have no guarantee of the gear slot… and then of the stats.
Still don’t think RNG slows down progress?
Lastly
Hypotheticals are fun aren’t they, generalizing stuff and arguing that “oh the player base is so undecided”. This is not only a non-argument, it’s a fallacious way of trying to discuss with someone. You could call this a strawman. I never said those things and I don’t know why you’d think this train of thought is relevant.
For this, read my above posts, it’s an adapted model of increased RNG in a game where it historically wasn’t there. ![:+1:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/+1.png?v=6" ":+1:")
Which elements exactly and how are these elements evoking the same response. I remind you that this video is made for F2P mobile games, where each element is designed to make the player to spend money. What’s the point of using this element in a game where options for the desired outcome don’t even exist?
You can take that out of context quote for example
“Make sure your games aren’t too skill based, I made that mistake myself.”
and the continuation is “too skill based game you don’t make people to pay you, because there is no reason to”, which means that if you can learn to overcome an obstacle, there is no reason to pay to overcome it.
Yet some people use this to explain why WoW was “dumbed down” which makes absolutely no sense in this context.
You act like the rate of acquisition is a force of nature which developers have no control over.
Your anecdote is completely meaningless because you don’t have any objective reference point. I could compare any RNG reward in this game with a badge vendor that requires 5k for a single item, and you can earn only 500 per week.
In this context the RNG would be much faster, maybe you get a full set by the time you would acquire 5k badges.
Again in both cases the devs set the pace, if they want to make it faster or slower they can using both systems to speed up or slow down your progress, again, one is not intrinsically faster than the other, you just need 2 functioning neurons to understand this.
Strawman is a misrepresentation of an argument, cause you don’t seem to know. Also i didn’t attribute those words to you, i don’t really know where you stand since i heard contradictory complains of the game.
So again, what is your position and how do you explain the exact opposite?
And lastly, WoW had some RNG, yet i don’t know how an increase in RNG puts it on the level of Dungeon Keeper mobile. Again, there are many business models between the two, it’s not as black and white as you think.
Within a couple weeks I have gear suited for mythic raiding.
Want to compare this to the badges of TBC and WotLK, where I’d need a month to get 2 “raid proper” pieces? Because justice badges were not “raid” worthy, valor were and those were capped.
You are only RNG gated if your gear income is only limited to an M+ cache per week. Which means that you’re not participating in content that actually gets you gear and that should be to blame for the lack of it, not expecting it from a bonus roll that you otherwise wouldn’t have.
Btw, badge vendors were always inferior to the current raid tier. So you never had proper gear from badges.
These elements, as I have already posted.
You may discount my anecodte because it is not a rigurously conducted experiment lol that’s fine, at least I have an instance where your example is wrong.
( @Leymistakes yes you did)
Not with WoD, what you say is wrong and I have done it myself to prove it. The cost for a PvP item was nothing of the sort. You had Honor gear with 1750 and 2250 costs and there was no cap on farming Honor, and the gladiator gear on par with Mythic ilvls when instanced (730 ilvl), which cost Conquest Points.
The Conquest points cap was the equivalent of 1 piece per week but you could increase your cap if you increased your rating and you could increase your weekly cap + missing a week’s cap retroactively stacked it as a catch up mechanic.
So not only could you gear yourself as fast as you wanted in blues with solid enough ilvls (710 ilvl in PvP), but Conquest gear gave you your guaranteed piece, with the stats you wanted, every week.
Expansions with soft currency vendors:
Expansions without soft currency vendors:
Please check for yourself Gannet.
Maybe this is rigurous enough for you to consider, if not… godspeed.
You have misatributed words to me before, don’t do it again. You wish to know my position on gear methods I believe they used to be fine in PvP and PvE in previous expansions, but less so in Legion and BFA.
I’ve played since Vanilla through Cataclysm. In WotLK and Cataclysm going all the way to hardcore raiding.
In WotLK and Cataclysm, badge gear was NOT equivalent to hardmode/heroic gear. A serious raider would, at best, just complete their set bonuses from badges because the heroic piece hasn’t dropped yet.
Also, the example from WoD probably includes way too much grinding in comparison to putting the same effort nowadays by doing just a few M+, but whatever. I keep forgetting that back them “grinding” was good, but now it’s bad because some people can’t accept we grew up and have less time in our hands, so they need to get a guarranteed AND specific piece every week by just doing a 30 minute M10 or throw a riot.
The example from WoD with the Conquest Point cap was even more effective than I mentioned. I believe “the next week”, whilst resetting you back to 0, increased the over all cap. So if you could get 1 piece in Week 1, you’d get 2 more pieces in Week 2.
If a new player or an Alt did rated PvP they could gear up their entire alt in 1-2 days if they tried hard enough (and during a late stage in the patch) with the most prestigious gear available to PvP. It was fine because it was an in-built catch up mechanic… the early birds had to trudge through the content as that was the point of it, but it seemed sensible enough to have this system this way.
If the lootbox wasn’t giving you BIS gear back in those days, then it didn’t invalidate the raids. Nowadays this statement no longer holds true, you have Benthic gear lottery and before that there was an issue with the m+ ilvls I believe, where they also yielded on par with mythic raiding BISes.
But to be on topic Leymistakes, the thread talks about the removal of loot boxes and RNG stats … I don’t think it’s possible. I think it’s too entrenched. I think it’s wrong the way it is now, and I agree with what you said about PvE – raids shouldn’t be invalidated like that.
There was no lootbox.
It’s an EXTRA on what ALREADY existed. just drops. AS A BONUS on top of what we already have, base drops.
Just like forging is a bonus on what already dropped base.
People lose their head over RNG extras even though the game is tuned around playable bases.
You did not explain how they relate to WoW, you got one thing right (accidentally), they don’t need to be carbon-copies, the most important aspect is the RESULT, so what effect do they have?
I know that “gotcha” mechanic makes you buy more packs, not getting what you want from the weekly chest makes you… ? what exactly? buy a token?
My question was about the speed of acquiring gear, not method. Do you think our gear progression is too slow, acceptable or too fast?
As for the RNG vs the currency issue, i explained it as clear as i can and i think it takes sheer stubbornness to not understand it.
Yes, I misspoke. I know lootboxes were introduced in WoD, I mentioned that in an above post. What I meant to say is that badge gear from WoTLk and Cata shouldn’t invalidate the raids. And they didn’t.
I take issue with the complete removal of vendors, I played in WoD and I did the only thing I wanted to do back then: PvP, and it worked fantastically. I could pick and mix gear from the vendors and the acquistiion system wasn’t unforgiving. I experimented all I wanted and I played with the gear combo that suited my playstyle.
In Legion, the vendors were removed, but they introduced scaling… templates. This sort of balanced it out whilst also changing the game of PvP entirely.
Now, there’s reduced scaling* and there’s no vendors. It was unplayable for me so I quit.
*= I stuck around in 8.0, scaling was implemented very poorly, caster and recipient saw different numbers on their screen and certain situations became headaches (e.g. I could heal an RBG team-mate with Word of Glory beyond Execute HP range but I didn’t know I could because the the consistency rule was violated)
I don’t know if they fixed this, I didn’t pay much attention to it afterwards, I did come back in 8.1.5 did a normal Bg with my crappy gear and got stomped so I assume they didn’t implement scaling back and so gear matters a lot again… but there are no gear vendors. That’s offputing to me.
I lose my head over RNG staying in but scaling going out, whilst there are no vendors brought back in.
I hope this clarifies.
It makes you play until you finally get the gear piece you want, with the stats you need. Which stretches out content, which makes RNG more unreliable than soft currency systems – making RNG take longer for right gear acquisition. Before you get to do the stuff you really wanted to do in the first place.
This is 100% the case in PvP.
Are you satisfied with doing PvE without taking into account secondary stats? Maybe if you say it doesn’t matter that much then I can see how you’re not affected, otherwise idk.
I don’t get how you don’t get it.
I have not really seen loot boxes in WOW, as for RNG I do agree it should be toned down, a person should know what they are going to get after doing a quest and/or a dungeon or raid.
But the entire system is just tied to an endless grind to keep you playing and to increase their player hour metrics. The only way this design in the game will end is if people just stop doing content like this or there are even more massive unsubs, a huge drop in income might make the bigwigs at Blizzard listen to the player base for a change.
As for currency in game we have too many different types. What we need right now is a universal currency or some type of currency exchange mechanism. Every single new patch there is a new currency to get gear, it is ridiculous.
I find the RNG lootboxes for stuff like mounts, pets, tabards, enchant illusions, cosmetic weapon transmogs etc to be completely fine.
Warforging/Titanforging and Socketforging needs to go, pronto, having luck decide actual performance enhancing gear progression is just plain stupid.