PROPOSAL: Let’s deliver curated Subtlety feedback (EU)

A player named Shoes create a topic in US Forum named: Let’s deliver curated Subtlety feedback, to gather all constructive, rather non emotional feedback to the Blizz Devs on how we want to see our Sub Rouge in the next expansion.
The topic is quite representative with 147 replies, 2.0k views, 23 players posting, and 384 players liking their posts / agree with those posting players.

I. Let’s make the same thing here!

Feel free to post your toughts here (with less emotion, more reason, please).

THIS TOPIC GOAL (Shoes quote):

What I am proposing is that we curate a document summarizing 1. high level points on intention and philosophy of our approach to Subtlety Rogue design; 2. specific feedback on every single ability and talent for Shadowlands Subtlety, based on that approach; and 3. specific feedback on every ability that we wanted but didn’t get in the unpruning.
Basically instead of just talking to each other in these threads all day, we could take a more organized and constructive approach.

DEVS GOAL (from Blizz WoW blog entry, april 7, 2020):

In Shadowlands , we want to return to the idea that a specialization is about powering up a specific part of a class’s kit, not narrowing down their toolset. In an expansion that is all about choice, we also want to give players more opportunities to make impactful choices to customize their gameplay and express their own vision of how their characters engage in combat. Many specialization-specific abilities and spells that help define the identity of a class will once again be available class-wide, and we’re reintroducing some iconic abilities to give all of Azeroth’s heroes a fighting chance against the dangers ahead.

II. I read the Shoes’s topic and I like to summarize the voices of US rogue players in the mentioned topic in two major points:

  1. SUB ROGUE PLAYERS WANT OLD ABILITIES BACK
    All iconic Rogue and Sub Rogue abilities:
  • Shiv
  • Gouge
  • Slice and Dice
  • Expose Armor
  • Rupture
  • Garrote
  • Ambush
  • old Backstab (mostly more dmg)
  • Ghost Strike
  • Hemorrhage
  • Premeditation
  • Preparation
  • Dismantle
  • Recuperate
  • Shroud of Concealment
  • Recuperate
  • Shadow Walk
  • Combat Readiness
  • old Tricks of the Trade (the one with damage buff in both PvP and PvE)
  • old Shadow Dance (1 min cldw, 1 charge)

To regain more control in battle, to choose from more vast range wich specific abilities they want to use, from nostalgia (to could use again their favorite abilities in retail WoW).
Most players didn’t like to Blizz throw away spells beeing core part of their rogue identity playstyle.

  1. IN GENERAL (SUB) ROGUE PLAYERS WANT THE FREEDOM TO MAKE A CHOICE
    Most of the players voices in the US topic give one general solution: Give (sub) rogue players a choice to make, how they want to play, what weapon they want to wield (sub can wield daggers and other one-handed weapons), what spells, what playstyle they want to choose on their favorite spec. In other words, the efforts to make Sub “the shadow fella”, or the Comb… Outlaw “the pirate” maybe was fun for a moment, as something new, but in long term, that’s not what the players always want to have, as one and only option, and what get things even worse, be forced to play as such.

My personal opinion on this:
Such variety should be given especially to a class, who all three specs are the same one role. If DH may choose to go burst/sustained, more dmg (PvE), more survability (PvP) in one spec, why rogue can’t having this in his three specs?


My constructive example of acheving goals above with reason and balance (for example giving a player something from the past he/she liked without taking something away, not simply mindlesly throw every abilities back to spellbook). Remember, these are only ideas, a sketches to show in what direction Blizz could go, and could be redesign freely.

The general idea at a start to contain some balance (without go deep into the numbers yet):

  • If one of a “given-a-trouble-to-balance” ability is chosen, some other ability strengthening this effect is replaced or not able to choose in pair with the first one. For example, if someone chooses Shadowstep as an Outlaw, it replaces Grappling Hook obviously, if Subtlety chooses Hemorrhage it replaces his/shes Sinister Strike and so on.

  • We could even see the return of one of some passive talents/abilities such as Serrated Blades, Sinister Calling, Slaughter from the Shadows or Initiative also in form of passives, like Master of Subtlety, to gain additional balance when using certain abilities and also to give back some more old abilities they choose in the past. Blizz can modify them as they wish to maintain they first purpose, but to make them fit in the new WoW as it is now and not 10-15 years ago (if we want something 1:1, instead we would choosing to play WoW Classic :wink: ).

  • Backstab as a base ability could be still used in front, but with talent / glyph we could gain “old” Backstab, with 60 energy cost and doing dmg only from behind. Or, in reverse, “basic” Backstab would only be used from behind but with glyph, somone could get “new” Backstab if he/she liked it. You choose between sustain and burst here.

  • Shadowstrike - could be still use, but should replace Ambush, when chosen and vice versa. All fans of both abilities will be satisfied. In such way we could deal with others “newest” Sub abilities - give players a choice: “you want to play a new one or the old one = you choose new style we invented or some of the old ones, you still would like to play”?
    Further steps to maitain balance may be done, maybe player could be using Ambush with Shadowstep, but Shadowstrike without Shadowstep?

  • Eviscerate, Ambush, (Backstab?), Ghostly Strike, Shiv, Gouge with melee weapon equipped in main hand deal less dmg than a dagger. Natural solution to choose between more burst combination (daggers equipped) and more sustain (other one handed weapon equipped) and maintain some balance.

  • Hemorrhage - 35 energy, deal X% of weapon dmg, and increasing physical dmg dealt to Y dmg, like in vanilla/TBC. With melee weapon equipped in main hand deal less dmg than a dagger. Iconic ability, and obviously a filler between finishers, for players who prefer to deal more sustained dmg.

  • Spells like Recuperate, Combat Readiness, Shadowstep, beeing used in history by all 3 specs, to gain balance, could be now chosen but with limitation (for example trough a talent or glyph, they be replacing some other spell etc.).

2 Likes

i mean your list is basically every ability that’s been changed or removed short of deadly throw, and you’re even listing things that we have (shiv, slice, shroud). is everything iconic? can’t say i think about ghostly strike or shadow walk very often.

the split between backstab and hemo was cool since it brought about the choice of faster points or more dmg, plus you had the option to play around evasion which was cute. i miss premed, particularly with slice coming back. prep would be very nice as well, lots of flexibility in play.

dismantle, garrote and gouge is crazy optimistic. but it would be nice to have one of them because sub does not have good peels atm in bfa which feels really bad. only stun drs which you don’t wanna use because it puts you behind and duel really, blinding defensive feels awful.

getting shiv helps but gouge in particular would be great so i can actually help my mage when he’s getting his brains bashed in instead of just watching it happen. you can put a huge energy cost on it to discourage the annoying psuedo-interrupt usage of it.

readiness did not feel like it belonged in rogue ever imo, yes it was strong, but that’s not a great argument. i don’t miss expose armor either.

sub already has a lot of choices in regards to burst vs sustained, they’re just not really useful in the current state, at least in pvp. several talent tiers have choices like that. dark vs enveloping, gloomblade vs find weakness, mfd/vigor/ds, ns/subterfuge/focus.

they’re just not implemented very well atm. fw and gloomblade is the same choice we made in legion, but it’s different because in legion master of subtlety was strong and gloomblade was strong. now you’re picking between a weak burst dmg modifier that doesn’t matter and a buff to backstab when backstab doesn’t matter. since both talents suck the choice doesn’t matter.

that’s a tuning problem though, be interested to see how that plays out with the mysterious “coming soon” talent and gloomblade in sl.

a thing i don’t like is why do we have so many energy talents? shadow focus, vigor, alacrity, shot in the dark and master of shadows are all very similar talents. they give you more energy and nothing else. why do all of these exist?

the last tier is just terrible too. master of shadows is boring, but it’s at least somewhat useful so you pick it every time. secret technique just sucks as a dfa replacement. the animation sucks, the damage sucks, there’s no way to play around it in an impactful way. shuriken tornado is incredibly awkward and i’ve never used it unironically other than mythic zul. nuke that whole tier and do something different.

bfa sub already has low apm outside of dance. this is being somewhat addressed with shadow’s whisper and maybe energetic recovery? increasing energy cost of backstab does not seem brilliant. idk, maybe it’d be fine if backstab did huge damage like you want, would have to try. gotta say though, playing rogue in raid in classic is not fun despite backstab being big.

i think i prefer the legion style of backstab being decent and being pressed often to that. that being said, bfa is worst of both worlds out of dance with low apm that does nothing.

picked this one out in particular, because i think it’s a cool idea. trouble is they will not be equal, one will be optimal. you’re not making a choice at that point, not really, you’re being forced into whichever one is better, and as a sub player i’d be very upset if that wasn’t daggers. the playstyle ideas in regards to shadowstrike, backstab etc are kinda similar. it’s like you want two specs to coexist simultaneously, but realistically that’s not how it’d play out. we already have this to some extent with the whole dark vs enveloping thing, and i’m not happy whenever enveloping is better.

1 Like

Thx Retier for very constructive post. Hope to see more of those here.

Well, it’s not “my” list :slight_smile:, just the part of the US Sub Rogues community. I don’t judge there, just gathering their request appearing in many replies in mentioned topic. I suppose Blizz won’t give all past spells just like that.
On the other hand, lenght of that list don’t bother mi neither. The number of abilities for example warrior regain, to “regain class identity” on SL alpha is seriously huge.

i miss premed, particularly with slice coming back. prep would be very nice as well, lots of flexibility in play.

The combo you mentioned next to gouge + backstab was the most excerpted by the rogue players, when I read trought forums :slight_smile:

the split between backstab and hemo was cool since it brought about the choice of faster points or more dmg, plus you had the option to play around evasion which was cute. i miss premed, particularly with slice coming back. prep would be very nice as well, lots of flexibility in play.

Yeah, totally agree.

dismantle, garrote and gouge is crazy optimistic. but it would be nice to have one of them because sub does not have good peels atm in bfa which feels really bad.

That’s the control players want give back to (sub) rogue.

readiness did not feel like it belonged in rogue ever imo, yes it was strong, but that’s not a great argument. i don’t miss expose armor either.

I read many commentary like “I don’t want that one, this is unbalanced, this is not a pure rogue spell etc.” on US and EU forums as well. My opinion here is to maybe not give everything back without reason, but give more options.
Even that Combat Readiness, an ability presented in MoP I presume? Maybe most people would associate it with Comb… Outlaw spec to be “toe to toe” with an enemy, but it was talent for all three spec in MoP. The heck, why not give assas or sub more survability option for a moment for example in PvP situation? Not like in Comb… Outlaw, but more than without it, beacuse that player want like to play a little more outside stealth and not want to be killed in seconds.
If we think the opposite way, why Assasination on some point gain Shadowstep, an ability that was given as a highest talent on the talent tree for Sub, so specific to the Sub spec? Why Asssas next to beeing “master of poisons” gain talents that make him also a “bleeding” expert, and so on.
The freedom of choice here, not to limit your abilities to one theme, one role, but not changing one spec to be another - that’s the goal we want from healthy rogue class “unprunning” in SL I think.

that’s a tuning problem though, be interested to see how that plays out with the mysterious “coming soon” talent and gloomblade in sl.

Maybe Hemo? :wink:

shuriken tornado is incredibly awkward and i’ve never used it unironically other than mythic zul. nuke that whole tier and do something different.

I PvE ST supposed to give you more combo points to finish off one by one more mobs in mob crowded situtations. In PvP is our “fan of knives” to sometimes unstealth druids, rogues, and hunters. The tuning problem you mentioned, maybe :slight_smile:

Dagger = burst, One-handed malee weapon = sustained - that philosophy was from the vanilla. It’s so natural. It’s in the Comb… Outlaw even still.

it’s like you want two specs to coexist simultaneously, but realistically that’s not how it’d play out.

Personnaly I don’t want forcing Sub to be Com… Outlaw all of the sudden. I just would love to see Sub gain more sustained dmg in the most natural, lore and past expansions friendly way it can be done :slight_smile: Maybe something between Comb… Outlaw sustained dmg and the burst dmg sub.

pvp only thoughts here

Agree on all 3 especially if subis going back to the 1 dance style it needs some more things to cover for it’s go’s/ to peel. if gouge is too good just increase the energy cost. i miss gouge we rly need this back

Shiv should removed enrage effects baseline not based of what poison you have equipped

Expose armour can stay dead cba

Rupture is good and on alpha but is missing sanguinary vein so it kinda don’t make sense atm( they REALLY need to add sang vein as a rupture passive)

Garrote is weird if it were to be readded it would probs needs a cd longer than 10 sec or an extreme energy cost and probably need to removed subterfuge for sub aswell. silences in general are extremly stong and giving one to a class that can multi stun on demand needs to be done with care.

agree with backstab im fine with it taking more energy for more dmg becuase atm if you renamed it to “combo point generator 1” i would honestly not notice much.

Ambush im not sure on. I mean i would not mind the old animation and sounds back cuz the new ones are terrible but, i would really like to keep the teleport effect on it, would maybe be ok with it’s removal if we got garrote but atm it’s one of the most versertile things we can use with the spec.

meh hemo as another bleed is ok i don’t really care for it too much

idc about ghostly strike

premeditation is interesting with SnD back and cheap shot nerfed to 1 combo point (im not sure WHY they did that) would be good for openers.

prep cannot come back as the game is too far pruned. the only way i could shink of bringing back prep is with an increased cd on vanish and it can only reset vanish.

disarms are disgusting without weapon chains atm if they bought back weapon chains i could see it as a pvp talent not sure on baseline though

i honestly dont care for recup

Shroud of Concealment is a cancer. i said it i HATE HATE HATE HATE this skill with a passion it’s unbalanceable af (as we saw with the 1 day they let people use it in arena and then disabled it) and it’s a gimmick i cba

Shadow walk could be cool to have back it was small but aight don’t really see the need for it though.

Combat readiness: nah rogues dont need more def cd’s while elusiveness exists could see an arguement for it if they got rid of it.

Tricks as a pvp set bonus would be REALLY GOOD idk why but it was always fun (and still is if you dabble in outlaw) to tricks before goes

i agree on 1 dance but that needs it’s own kind of topic

one thing i’ll add for sub is that you SHOULD NOT be allowed to augment dance charges in any way. the entire 75 row needs to be rethought

remove subterfuge this skill is bad for the game and whoever made it should feel bad

also we need to see what the tuning will be like in SL. you can’t just add cd’s into a slow paced meta because the meta becomes even slower.

2 Likes

So basically, you want every ability from every spec to be in sub.

Hi! Knifeman thx for your voice, nice to have you here! To clear things out. As I said, this isn’t “my” list. This is a list gathering thoughts of Sub Rogues from the US forums as I mentionned at the begining of this topic. I posted it because it shows the direction some noticible number of rogue players would go (players active on forums, not enough data to said “most of the players”).

My personal list would be without Combat Readiness, Recuperate (we have good healing), Shroud, Shadow Walk, and I’m also neutral with Expose Armor (but CP on greater Find Weaknesses, hmm, forcing some tactics), and Premeditation. But in general, I prefer an aproach with more abilities to choose to create more playstyles rather then one main direction Blizz choose for us in Legion and BfA.

And this is not every ability from every spec (?). This “us forum” list is simply most of abilities sub ever had, nothing more.

Yep, rogue is a class, same should go for any other class tbh, I think this is the approach Blizzard should have sticked to to begin with.

Thx for your voice, Khooba!

i like shadow theme… but it’s too much of it…

  1. as one guy on US forum Rês < SIGNATUS > wrote:
    ,On the topic of Slice & Dice, something I would like to see is for them to bring back Energetic Recovery passive."
    on top of it we need Premeditation.
    to Premed->SnD before a fight.(this was iconic move that i loved in WoD).

  2. Symbols of Death shoud be baked to SD (with energy OVER time… not instant :expressionless: )… you gonna press it only when you gonna SD anyway… :roll_eyes: (premeditation will be replacement)

  3. delete Shadow Techniques ( Energetic Recovery will take care of energy regen) and for more CPs…
    make new passive XXX: every 3 sec. your next CP generator will generate 1CP more.
    this will make sence… would be Track-able and wouldn’t be as annoying and chaotic as Shadow Techniques.

  4. i would like to see Mobility talent row… bring back Burst Of Speed (even nerfed verzion) (you could pick BoS or 2 charges of Shadowstep).

  5. Ambush… just rename and bring back old sound effect. (keep that passive teleport on it) i wanna hear that sound so bad :upside_down_face:.

  6. Shadow Blades CD is too long… 2 min. would be welcome.

  7. Backstab -> reduce energy cost to 30 from 35. ? :thinking:

  8. kinda disagree with dealing bonus 50% dmg as shadow damage with Evis and Shadow Vault… i would buff Find Weaknes to 60% and deal 50% physical dmg.

  9. love to see Shadow dance with 1 charge. but i think Enveloping Shadows Talent would make problem… ( i mean… this part of it: Deepening Shadows reduces the remaining cooldown of Shadow Dance by an additional 1 sec per combo point spent.) (it’s too strong with another charge… imo)

That’s it… i hope this helps them to make Subtlety functional and meaningful :slightly_smiling_face:

4 Likes

Just bumping this gem of a thread :^)
Keep it up

2 Likes

Make sub great again

I’m a big fan of having Hemorrhage make a comeback again… I miss this skill so much. At the very least, Subtlety needs to have the option once again between dagger or swords like we originally intended to have. Backstab can stay energy spender for daggers, and Hemorrhage our energy spender for Swords/Fist etc…

I think rogues have been pigeonholed a bit too extremely into only being able to use daggers. The same Fury Warriors may get the choice between Titan’s Grip and Single Minded Fury, 2 x 2H vs 2 x 1H.

Make Rogues great again, and give us back our original choices. Rupture is back as well, wich always complimented Hemorrhage, so I feel like there is finally some hope! Backstab and Hemo… nobody loses everybody wins!

2 Likes

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