A player named Shoes create a topic in US Forum named: Let’s deliver curated Subtlety feedback, to gather all constructive, rather non emotional feedback to the Blizz Devs on how we want to see our Sub Rouge in the next expansion.
The topic is quite representative with 147 replies, 2.0k views, 23 players posting, and 384 players liking their posts / agree with those posting players.
I. Let’s make the same thing here!
Feel free to post your toughts here (with less emotion, more reason, please).
THIS TOPIC GOAL (Shoes quote):
What I am proposing is that we curate a document summarizing 1. high level points on intention and philosophy of our approach to Subtlety Rogue design; 2. specific feedback on every single ability and talent for Shadowlands Subtlety, based on that approach; and 3. specific feedback on every ability that we wanted but didn’t get in the unpruning.
Basically instead of just talking to each other in these threads all day, we could take a more organized and constructive approach.
DEVS GOAL (from Blizz WoW blog entry, april 7, 2020):
In Shadowlands , we want to return to the idea that a specialization is about powering up a specific part of a class’s kit, not narrowing down their toolset. In an expansion that is all about choice, we also want to give players more opportunities to make impactful choices to customize their gameplay and express their own vision of how their characters engage in combat. Many specialization-specific abilities and spells that help define the identity of a class will once again be available class-wide, and we’re reintroducing some iconic abilities to give all of Azeroth’s heroes a fighting chance against the dangers ahead.
II. I read the Shoes’s topic and I like to summarize the voices of US rogue players in the mentioned topic in two major points:
- SUB ROGUE PLAYERS WANT OLD ABILITIES BACK
All iconic Rogue and Sub Rogue abilities:
- Shiv
- Gouge
- Slice and Dice
- Expose Armor
- Rupture
- Garrote
- Ambush
- old Backstab (mostly more dmg)
- Ghost Strike
- Hemorrhage
- Premeditation
- Preparation
- Dismantle
- Recuperate
- Shroud of Concealment
- Recuperate
- Shadow Walk
- Combat Readiness
- old Tricks of the Trade (the one with damage buff in both PvP and PvE)
- old Shadow Dance (1 min cldw, 1 charge)
To regain more control in battle, to choose from more vast range wich specific abilities they want to use, from nostalgia (to could use again their favorite abilities in retail WoW).
Most players didn’t like to Blizz throw away spells beeing core part of their rogue identity playstyle.
- IN GENERAL (SUB) ROGUE PLAYERS WANT THE FREEDOM TO MAKE A CHOICE
Most of the players voices in the US topic give one general solution: Give (sub) rogue players a choice to make, how they want to play, what weapon they want to wield (sub can wield daggers and other one-handed weapons), what spells, what playstyle they want to choose on their favorite spec. In other words, the efforts to make Sub “the shadow fella”, or the Comb… Outlaw “the pirate” maybe was fun for a moment, as something new, but in long term, that’s not what the players always want to have, as one and only option, and what get things even worse, be forced to play as such.
My personal opinion on this:
Such variety should be given especially to a class, who all three specs are the same one role. If DH may choose to go burst/sustained, more dmg (PvE), more survability (PvP) in one spec, why rogue can’t having this in his three specs?
My constructive example of acheving goals above with reason and balance (for example giving a player something from the past he/she liked without taking something away, not simply mindlesly throw every abilities back to spellbook). Remember, these are only ideas, a sketches to show in what direction Blizz could go, and could be redesign freely.
The general idea at a start to contain some balance (without go deep into the numbers yet):
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If one of a “given-a-trouble-to-balance” ability is chosen, some other ability strengthening this effect is replaced or not able to choose in pair with the first one. For example, if someone chooses Shadowstep as an Outlaw, it replaces Grappling Hook obviously, if Subtlety chooses Hemorrhage it replaces his/shes Sinister Strike and so on.
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We could even see the return of one of some passive talents/abilities such as Serrated Blades, Sinister Calling, Slaughter from the Shadows or Initiative also in form of passives, like Master of Subtlety, to gain additional balance when using certain abilities and also to give back some more old abilities they choose in the past. Blizz can modify them as they wish to maintain they first purpose, but to make them fit in the new WoW as it is now and not 10-15 years ago (if we want something 1:1, instead we would choosing to play WoW Classic ).
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Backstab as a base ability could be still used in front, but with talent / glyph we could gain “old” Backstab, with 60 energy cost and doing dmg only from behind. Or, in reverse, “basic” Backstab would only be used from behind but with glyph, somone could get “new” Backstab if he/she liked it. You choose between sustain and burst here.
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Shadowstrike - could be still use, but should replace Ambush, when chosen and vice versa. All fans of both abilities will be satisfied. In such way we could deal with others “newest” Sub abilities - give players a choice: “you want to play a new one or the old one = you choose new style we invented or some of the old ones, you still would like to play”?
Further steps to maitain balance may be done, maybe player could be using Ambush with Shadowstep, but Shadowstrike without Shadowstep? -
Eviscerate, Ambush, (Backstab?), Ghostly Strike, Shiv, Gouge with melee weapon equipped in main hand deal less dmg than a dagger. Natural solution to choose between more burst combination (daggers equipped) and more sustain (other one handed weapon equipped) and maintain some balance.
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Hemorrhage - 35 energy, deal X% of weapon dmg, and increasing physical dmg dealt to Y dmg, like in vanilla/TBC. With melee weapon equipped in main hand deal less dmg than a dagger. Iconic ability, and obviously a filler between finishers, for players who prefer to deal more sustained dmg.
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Spells like Recuperate, Combat Readiness, Shadowstep, beeing used in history by all 3 specs, to gain balance, could be now chosen but with limitation (for example trough a talent or glyph, they be replacing some other spell etc.).