PvP more complex in Classic

Community General Discussion
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And I’m specifically talking about casual (not rated) Player vs Player >Combat<, also thins might be different for ranged players but taking me as a example (average geared lvl 60 Arms warrior) I often find myself thinking about what I could have done better in the previous fight.

On retail I haven’t had the urge to think about my mistakes (again talking about casual PvP) really since WoD, because it is hard to make any that result into a dramatic decrease of your performance.

I thought a second about why that is and probably the number 1 reason for that is the way shorter combat times.

On average you have time for 3-5 globals before you or your target dies, this process is accelerated by the amount of ally and or enemy players participating in the fight you are in so you end up with more like 2-3 globals (melee perspective).

Also keep in mind I’m not talking about duels even tho they can be over just as quick.

But where I’m getting at here is:
The actions you perform during this short time of combat weight way more compared to the longer lasting fights on retail, thus if you take an average of 5 globals per fight and you mess up one (which is really easy esp. as a melee) for example not going into berserker stance >before< engaging with a Warlock you basically auto lose bc. coil>fear =dead versus having one failed global on retail out of 20 performed in the fight.

Also I press way more keybinds during the average encounter in classic then I do on retail, which also adds more complexity, I won’t go further into that tho since there will be people who say stuff like: more keybinds ≠ more complexity yadayada, which can be true but in most cases isn’t.

[conclusion]
This way of playing warrior is way more engaging to me then it is on retail, I’d prefer low uptime but absolutely demolishing someone when finally getting a few globals off over having constant uptime/bombarding someone with your globals but hitting like a wet noodle any day.

TL;DR
shorter average combat times in PvP result into a more unforgiving and punishing experience when not playing your class perfectly in every single encounter. ( 1/5 not optimally used globals weights more than 1/20 not optimally used globals)

I haven’t played the original Vanilla WoW so the somewhat “fast paced” combat surprised me, also the fact that your abilities do way more % dmg of enemy HP (Mortal strike on retail does like 5% and on classic 30% of someones HP/ forstbolt retail to classic ratio is like 2/20 %)

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Thank you for TLDR version now I understand what you mean while it is true the PvP design of retail on low lvls prohibits you from actually learning properly while with vanilla I can’t say for sure I haven’t played it but I agree on the first point.

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Pvp in classic was more fun because there weren’t many no fun allowed politics deployed.

And because the game wasn’t so heavily concentrated on MDI and E-sport pvp.

There wasn’t many scenarios where you just give up or many scenarios where everyone has an answer.

The more thought you put into the stuff the more results you get, the more lengths you were willing to take the more results you achieved, everyone was unique and everyone created their own gameplay experience.

Sure the classes weren’t really complex, but they all had some pretty cool depth to them.

While pvp in Retail is centered around everyone being a homogenous copy of eachother, and everything Is set in place, you can almost tell the outcome of most fights.

And since it’s so heavily balanced around 3v3, it leads to a lot of frustration when your class can’t function properly unless its in a certain setting.

If I were to compare retail vs classic

retail would be a shallow river and classic is a deep pond.

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In the end of vanilla there was a spec for warlock where you only use 3 dots and the targets without heal or very high hp, or dispel would die %101. My favourite targets were rogues. Even if they managed to kill me, they would die after. BFA pvp is more complex than that for sure, i am talking for a warlock ofc.

As for warrior, it is the exact opposite as you explained.

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I don’t think that’s necessarily the problem, the classes were arguably more homogenous during MoP with way more utility/defense and the combat felt still really good, I think it’s blizzards misunderstanding of how to implement that correctly and how to create an actual engaging combat experience.

in ultra short: the main complaint I have is that Blizzard pruned the possibility from people to make mistakes, it still exists but to a way smaller extend and way less punishing.

and when you don’t make any punishing mistakes how are you supposed to learn from them ?

they are trying too hard to balance the game and now we have come so far that they directly balance player performance to decrease the gap between a skilled/average and bad player.

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This really… this soo much!

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Idk, just like dungeons mechanics, I find PVP also too “Runescape likish” in Classic. What I mean is that in many cases there just aint counter play or you just don’t do nothing special. You get 2 dots, boom you dead. Mana user get hit by Hunters Viper Sting, boom dead. Neither is BFA PVP any better. I mean in BFA everyone has everything and it makes game stale. Sometimes in BFA I feel like all my shots are going into black hole because everyone is always healing the damage I made back up or gets observed by something. In BFA everyone has too much mana, In Classic you make 1 rotation, 1/3 of mana is gone. For me Cata felt more something between these two- You didn’t run out of mana in first rotation, but same time it didn’t last forever. Also you had some rotation to do, rather than stand still and auto attack or spam that 1 spell.

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While PvP is faster in classic I decided with bgs release to play retail for proper PvP. Warriors 2 shotting and rogues killing in one stunlock if my coil is on cd or Im not using succubus isnt really compelling gameplay for me. And what really turned me off from classic is how people do not even care about PvP, its all about farming honor as efficiently as possible.
PvE in classic is another thing entirely, while there is some challenge in PvP, all raids and dungeons are just faceroll on par if not easier than LFR.

Some stuff is nice in classic gameplay like class nieches.

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I never said that I think the classic class / PvP design is optimal, both BfA and Classic are far from that Ideal.

If I could take a expansion to forever play in, I’d take probably MoP but cata was fun too, it still had the talent trees and WoltK had fun stuff like armor penetration (my fav stat btw.) it’s a hard choice tbh.

I mean the counterplay is basically a race who is faster oom or dead, I must say it is really annoying as warrior to see 2-3 warlock dots on you because as you said it means you will slowly die if you 1.) don’t kill the lock quick and eat 2.) LoS and eat or 3.) run into a healer

but that’s honestly a big plus for the game too because for the first time in my life I had the urge to level a lock to max lvl after seeing that.

every class has it’s niche field of viability.

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Have to agree the difference is huge . Playing lock in both versions they difference is just mind boggling .
I see no skill at all in classic .
You stand no chance agaisnt orc warrior or undead rogue there is no skill involved in classic at all .

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I have vivid imagination. But not that vivid to see what OP sees. More complex ?

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I think I broke the explanation down as much as I thought would be necessary, may I was wrong ?

I’ll try again.

shorter combat = stuff you do during that time is more impactful than stuff you do in a longer combat and mistakes weigh more ?

anyways feel free to tell me where your imagination ends and mine starts, I’m open for discussion.

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But there is no combat or skill involved via classic pvp just luck.

You sound rather arrogant and obtuse towards the poster you replied to she wasnt bein rude towards you. People are allowed views and to ask things if you dont like that dont post on a public forum.

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I played a lot of BGs and ranked things in vanilla, and I have refreshed my memory in Classic, and in comparison -(since I cannot be armouried efficiently as this is a trust levelled alt) I have done 2.2k level arena in later expansions, and in Legion fought myself 125 honor levels. So I believe I have done some PvP in this game and am not completely alien to its aspects. Just to give some background what I compare classic against.

But … Classic/Vanilla PvP was/is never fair. It was all about if you had spell X ready, and who got opener. And the fun many saw in it was about the ability to dominate with little to no effort. You did not need ‘skill’, but you needed that one trinket, or that one spell and that Y or X build.

Only complex part as I see it is to get that trinket or item. And practice the build a few times. I do not see it more complex or more meaningful, but on the contrary more simplified and basic. This is not neceserily a bad thing as people enjoy it and it can be fun. But what I argue against is ‘more complex’. Fun, entertaining and ‘complex’ are for me very different words. I loved vanilla PvP, I spent more time in fights than in dungeons.

I think later expansions got it better, when fight durations were made longer and you had chances to flee or fight or turn the tides. There has always been winners and those who did it less, but in classic I find it is too … basic hierarchy.

There were some classes that may feel different and more complex in vanilla pvp - like warriors, but i wouldn’t know since last time my warrior saw BG and PvP was sometime in WoTLK. I am not warrior kind of player. But if I compare mage now and ‘2minute glass cannon’ from vanilla, i am not sure …

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I’m interested where you got that information from, you are basically saying classic PvP is a slot machine ?

implying I’m making stuff up/ my brain not being functional without providing any explanation that would suggest that is kinda rude I think, maybe I’m sensitive tho.

I tend to reply normally/take people seriously if they do the same to me.

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:slight_smile:

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I never really said classic PvP was “fair”, of course it’s far from that but I think a game doesn’t need to be completely fair, especially not a RPG, for example the templates in Legion and somewhat the scaling now are just a way of Blizzard saying: we protect you from having less time and or brain than other people.

and the thing with having trinket or crucial ability X ready when someone engages in combat with you has been a factor in any expansion up to date.

And again there are probably videos who are similar to this one taken in any expansion and it doesn’t proof the point of classic PvP being entirely a slot machine.

can’t mages do the same thing right now without any gear and greater pyro ? I actually don’t know but since it is a % based ability I’d imagine it is possible.

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The only thing spicy i see about classic is stuff being bonkers, professions being a must at times depending on who you face.

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Its about as complex as sitting on the toilet and pushing some brown out

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Its not complicated, its just slow.

If something happens you have perhaps 2 options to counter. How is that complex and how did you manage to write a whole thesis length of drivel on it?

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