Raids are getting ridiculously complex

Gameplay Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
44

Or here’s a thought… maybe they just like a challenge? My life, work and family is great yet I still chase harder content

1 Like
45

Lol what? Even Mythic raids are easy and I question the ability of anyone who can’t do the Mekkatorque fight properly.

This sounds like a major case of needing to ‘‘git gud’’.

46

Simple, that’s because of bossmods and weakauras…

47

Rofl, what?

I enjoy the dark souls games because they are difficult and it’s very enjoyable to improve and overcome the challenges they throw at you.
That doesn’t mean I’m struggling irl with any of those things you mentioned.

Same goes for mythic raids.

2 Likes
48

How do i become such a perfect human being like you?

And what does trashing people with higher progression than you on an online forum for that game say about you?

Some people just like a challenge and prefer that over mindnumbing content like WQs/Warfronts and old raids?

I will enjoy classic, but not for their raids.

1 Like
49

mostly because people use addons to tell them everything they have to do. Players are not much more than bots doing whatever get written on their screen. That means the amount of mechanics has to be high to still make it challenging. I think thats still better than having boring bosses with only few abilities

50

ROFL :smiley:

Let me break your cozy little bubble a bit - Normally functioning and successful people tend to seek challenge in EVERYTHING they do, be it in the real life or a virtual one (such as WoW or any other online game). Having no time for the 2nd because they are too occupied with the 1st is a completely different argument (and a perfectly valid one) but your statement is still as far away from the truth as it possibly can.
And in fact it’s quite the opposite, those who don’t seek challenge in whatever they are doing while having the time for it are the ones who are only staying in their comfort zone and never getting out of it. It’s a state of mind, you either constantly challenge yourself trying to better at everything you do, or you just stay in your comfort zone forever and just get satisfied with whatever you can achieve from there. And this is valid for the virtual world just as much as it is for the real one. And staying forever in your comfort zone is something I would also consider a “deficiency”.

The good thing about this game is it offers something or both worlds. Why do ppl like you, who obviously do not like or want to challenge themselves try to ruin it for the others who do? There is difficulty levels for every kind of players. Stick to yours and lets the others stick to what they enjoy.

3 Likes
51

Ooohhh… i can do that as well.
People who don’t like a challenge clearly has a brain problem. but its normal that people who have those deficiencies would deny it. its a self preservation mechanism.

You actually said some partly good things, earlier, but you had to go and ruin it with pointless bashing, with no basis in the truth what so ever.
Some people like a game with a challenge, if it’s easy, imo it’s pointless, so for me, i like the challenges the game CAN offer. If you’re not the kind of person who likes a challenge, well… there are difficulties for that aswell.

That being, said, you’re also right, when you said earlier that many people who look forward to WoW classic, miss the RPG element and community Vanilla brought. We can’t deny much of that is gone in retail, WF and TF makes a mockery out of RPG progression.
But why can’t we have both? I’d like both. But then again, maybe that’s just me.
I’d personally stick to retail over classic because i value the challenge more than the RPG elements.

52

Then go play Tetris or ESO.

if anything, WoW is too easy. Normal and Heroic are a joke, and LFR is what people play when they watch a TV show on the other screen.

53

1st, I believe you got the wrong quote there.

2nd, what are you really implying here? That the person who really said what you quoted should play ESO or Tetris because they are not challenging, or are you actually replying to my response and saying that Tetris and ESO are more challenging than WoW??

54

That’s the problem, though, isn’t it? There is no middle ground between a faceroll difficulty and a difficulty where the mistake of a single person wipes the entire raid.

Both LFR and normal are completely trivial, heroic is something that will take the average raiding guild a bit of time and then there’s the giant brick wall of mythic where suddenly the entire raid needs to rigorously study the encounters, get an absolute crapload of addons, and, preferably, class stack to even hope getting anywhere in a reasonable amount of time.

I’m pretty sure that that’s now how a healthy learning curve should look like.

55

Majority of this is absolute BS. You don’t need to rigorously study the encounters. Do you know how the heroic fight works? Just look up what changes on mythic and on 99% of the cases you are good to go. Or watch a single video guide for the encounter.
You don’t need more addons for mythic. If you have a bossmod and weakauras, you are completely set. I didn’t know two addons was “crapload”.
I could semi agree on class stacking, but on vast majority of the bosses, it’s unneeded. Reasons for class stacking are widely varied and usually are only needed during the world first race and extremely high end CE raiding (think of top 300 world as an example). By the time rest of the mythic raiders get there, the fight has already been nerffed and/or you have more gear than what the people before you did, thus eliminating the need for class stacking. There are always exceptions to this of course (think of Sub rogues on Zul) but those aren’t the norm.

56

Tell that to our raid team then. It’s perfectly possible to bumble through heroic without knowing half the mechanics properly and with no or limited addons for the majority of the raid force.

I’ll admit that the craploads of addons thing might be a bit exaggerated if you just count the bare minimum needed for mythic progression. The rest still stands though.

On mythic you suddenly not only need to know what everything does and how to correctly deal with it, but you also get mythic only mechanics that are specifically designed to be extremely punishing and new ability overlaps on top of even that. This isn’t a linear difficulty growth; it’s an entire magnitude more difficult without much to prepare you for that difficulty spike at all.

Similarly with classes - you can clear heroic with basically anything (we did heroic Uldir and BoD with 2/3 of the raid being melee, and we’re not exactly amazing). On mythic not only does this stop working, but you also get significant benefits of stacking specific classes. Sure, there’s no Zul, but there sure as hell is a massive benefit to having as many SPs, Locks and Shamans as possible because they have distinct advantages in about 2/3 of the current raid content. Again, this is a significant difficulty spike on a guild level.

Nerfs and gear aren’t that good of an argument either. Having 5 - 10 more itemlevels than Method is nowhere near to level the playing field unless you’re already in a guild that is capable of getting Cutting Edge. Enrage is almost never an issue for most and the dangerous mythic mechanics tend to oneshot or wipe you regardless of gear.

Same for nerfs - to my knowledge no significant mythic BoD nerfs were even announced until very recently, and that’s assuming you can even get to any of the nerfed bosses.

All that really wasn’t my point anyway, though.

I don’t really have a problem with the most difficult content in the game actually being difficult. What I do have a problem with is that NOTHING before mythic even comes close to it in difficulty, and this affects me directly. Originally our guild was planning to just take it easy in BFA and only do heroic raiding… until we ran out of heroic content about a month into Uldir with the most scuffed raid comp imaginable that would have to go through significant restructuring to get anything done in mythic, which we ended up doing because otherwise we might as well had unsubbed until 8.1.

I have a sneaking suspicion that there’s a lot of guilds out there with the same problem as ours - grind heroic for months because it’s too easy or go through the painful process of trying to turn a guild into a mythic raiding guild to attempt content that is potentially too difficult and may even kill the guild. There needs to be a middle ground between current heroic and mythic difficulty (no, I don’t mean more difficulty levels).

57

actualy to think of it, most raid bosses aint hard to learn, but problem is more.

  1. what class you have, thoug a raid can be done whit any class, some classes makes encounters way easier, aka class stacking.

  2. balancing, this is a huge issue, some bosses become easier whit smaler groups, where others become easier whit bigger groups, though almost all bosses are easier whit big groups, some are close to impossible or realy hard whit smaler groups, for example Mechatorque, the bigger the group the easier it is, where a 10 man group will have it realy hard due to how the mechanics work.

58

But, mechanically, the first 3-4 bosses mythic are easier than jaina HC.

Well, guilds killed Zul without rogues, even before the Shurikenstorm nerf just fine, though not in the first few weeks.

Most of it is just ‘dont stand in bad’, ‘focus adds’, ‘move out with debuffs’.

The first few bosses on mythic are always pretty easy so guild with bad comps can dabble their feet into mythic.
But once you reach the later bosses, you still want content that is engaging for the top end.

The “problem” with mythic is rather that it requires at least 20 players each raid, preferably 23-25 with 5 of them sitting each week, which is really punishing for the average HC guild.
In HC it doesn’t matter if you bring 1 more or 1 less DD, on mythic you can’t go with 21 nor with 19 tbh.

59

Have you tried Heroic raids with a 10-man group? I have and they aint exactly faceroll and the mistake of a single person means pretty much game over.

The biggest brick wall comes even before that - gather 20 decent players at the same time.

60

But, mechanically, the first 3-4 bosses mythic are easier than jaina HC.

How do you explain us beating HC Jaina in about two raid nights and then being stuck for weeks on Opulence (and, to a lesser extent, Grong)? HC Jaina may have more stuff going on, but it’s far less punishing and with fewer and less nasty overlaps.

The “problem” with mythic is rather that it requires at least 20 players each raid, preferably 23-25 with 5 of them sitting each week, which is really punishing for the average HC guild.
In HC it doesn’t matter if you bring 1 more or 1 less DD, on mythic you can’t go with 21 nor with 19 tbh.

Agreed, but I don’t really see it as a problem with mythic. Rather the problem is that, as already mentioned, there is just such a massive gap between what is needed to clear heroic and what is needed to even make decent progress in mythic. Unless you are in a guild that is struggling to clear heroic consistently or good enough to have steady progress in mythic you’re kinda out of content about a month into a raid tier.

I’m not really a fan of artificial challenges. I’m sure we’d be progressing longer in heroic if we clicked all our spells, but who wants that?

61

git good or go home

62

Because you have 1-3 people that are significantly worse than the rest of your roster, at least thats what slowed down our progression on opulence.
The same 2-3 people dieing every pull in P1.
For me, personally, Opulence M is easier than Jaina HC, I died 0 times in P1 while progressing mythic opulence, it’s just normal/HC mechanics with some random people swapping every once in a while.

I agree and tbh. my favorite expansion is TBC for that exact reason.
2 Raid tiers released at the same time, in total 5 raids, a 10-Man raid and some 25-man raids. Content for everyone.

For me, 10-man raiding is the most fun i had in WoW(I miss Kara :persevere:), so i can totally understand him.

63

na not complex just some players very slow learn ok wipe wipe few tims ok wipe hours on hours not ok waste ever 1 time want kill thet boss not fair to them or for oter