Ret Paladin Covenant Balance

I do a fair bit of M+ on my ret paladin to around 15 keys.

I’m concerned that the class - backed up by the focus of topics here on divine resonance etc - is being balanced around Kyrian. Certainly, in PVP this is obviously the case with talents that now align with judgement applications. The Kyrian legendary in M+ is strong in single target (simming 2nd and felt like that after testing Final Verdict) and high on AOE. It certainly felt better and performed better than mad paragon or vanguard in AOE when I tested it. I can’t speak to raids so I won’t but I understand the Kyrian legendary is good there.

I’m Venthyr as I love the covenant and ability. I changed to Kyrian for a week with the divine resonance legendary and it’s clear that the 1% Ion talks about in difference between specs and covenant etc is just ludicrous.

I’ll stay my covenant regardless. I’d just like someone at Blizzard to be more considerate of this. I laughed when I saw the Venthyr paladin legendary for ret. The only possible application it has is mad paragon with a static, non-tyrannical boss fight for the extra 15 seconds. The “if you leave get 30 seconds off” is laughable. The convoke legendary seems a more appropriate way to go to bring things in line.

I find it odd that you say this and at the same time you play what people consider bis for raiding for both holy and prot.
Of course, divine resonance is kyrian because it is a kyrian legendary.

The reason for all the talk around it is because of the random 50% nerf to that specific legendary making it a question if it is good or not.

And yet it was a serious question if it was better than the other legendaries for both holy and prot.
A legendary that is made for all 3 specs had questions for 2 out of 3.

Also ventyr ret paladins are doing +20s

Venthyr ret paladins are not doing +20s.

Why is it odd if you aren’t playing holy or prot in a raid that you bring up an issue of balance for a different spec in two different pieces of content?

Would you not agree there is a disparity between the two for ret? and even greater between Kyrian and other covenants in M+. Is this really a controversial claim?

I accept I can make the change if I’m that bothered. My issue isn’t with the players but it’s an issue of how the covenants were presented and how they’re scaling.

Yes they are.
Are there far more kyrian yes yes it is but +20s are being done by venthyr.

No it is odd because you are already playing the covenant that would be bis if it was not for kyrian ret. you know the kyrian the thing that is closest to a paladin in looks and so on in the shadowlands.

Is there a difference between them yes there is but venthyr is already dang good for Ret.
And at max renown Necrolord is becoming good also.
I am not disputing that kyrian is the best as of now for ret.

I am finding it funny that you play the BiS holy (organized group) covenant the covenant that is the reason for all the complaints about holy paladins, the best single target and is good enough for m+ covenant for Prot, and the second best Ret covenant and at the same time talking about how the balance is so bad and basically saying kyrian needs to be nerfed.

Kyrian is the most obv for paladin just like night fea is for druid.

Can balance be better yes it can but as an example if all the dps abilities and soulbinds are the same night fea becomes the go-to just because of the movement.
There needs to be differences.

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Check raiderio for Season 2. Venthyr rets are not doing +20s currently except when switching to holy.

I should have picked it because you’ve deemed it the most appropriate visually? I think blizzard saying they wanted player choice and claiming 1% dps difference in choices is entirely false. Is night fae most visually fitting for warlocks?

Have you used the venthyr covenant ability in mid-to highish keys? Perhaps even with a pug tank?

I don’t get why asking for blizzard to look into adjusting the legendaries or covenant abilities (unlikely at this point) is funny and I don’t get the holy paladin connection. If resto shaman was busted in a raid enviornment and doing dps style damage, I would expect anyone to use that as a way to measure enhancement shaman dps in m+ or mean it can’t be discussed.

Venthyr holy paladin in Mythic + was the go too last season for the top highest keys.
That you are not aware of that is intresting.

I have not i did believe mplus was using that data or that is what i have been reading.
You seem to be right the highest i found was at number 26in the world for ret paladins.

So there is only 25 rets with higher m+ score than them.
So Clearly Venthyr is good enough to do very high keys.

You have found why venthyr is not considered the best for pug keys.
Now try saying the exact same thing but with an organized group and you get why holy paladins are liking venthyr for organized groups and other covenants for pugs.
You are literally making the holy paladin connection right here yourself.

Blizzard never claimed a 1% difference they (by they i mean Ion) in fact said they are fine with them being different with people picking the one that does the most damage.
Because some will pick for how they look some will pick for the event some will pick for damage and so on.

I am aware Venthyr is best for Holy paladin and that needs looking at too but a healer doing too much damage is a separate issue, as I’m trying to make clear.

I have pugged tanks as well as having regular tank. We do 12-15 keys. I did the same last season. I’ve played the kyrian covenant with the legendary and have built and tried vanguards momentum, tempest, final verdict, mad paragon + various talent set ups.

I’m fully aware of the potential of these two covenant abilities for ret in each circumstance.

Ion’s exact quote was this “while yes there may be one covenant that is best for boss 3 in the raid” “the answer for boss 6 will be differenet” and “the answer for one dungeon or one affix will be different from the other”. This is not the case but they have a good opportunity with the legendaries to correct this a bit.

All I started this for was that so blizzard might see and think they need to adjust legendary for the covenant I play. I think this is understandable surely. There’s around a 300-400 dps difference just between these two (let alone between necrolord or nightfae). Since other classes are starting to pull like ele shaman, arcane mage etc on top of the already well performing specs then I’d hope they’d adjust ret with varied covenant choice in mind - this is all.

The devs dont even know there is a spec called retribution paladin.

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Kyrian will forever be best unless the heavily buff others. Kyran ret has just that insane Single+aoe target burst no other covenant can offer.

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Why can’t they just give us an ability there increases all holy damage done for retribution paladins it’s not that hard just add some numbers and %

Because we already have way too much modifier to the dmg between wings, exec sentence, judgment etc etc. Another flat dmg % bonus is just another complication and balance issue when you pair it with other stuff like trinkets etc etc.

I mean, in that very same thing you linked, Venthyr Ret paladins make up ~3% of the runs. with the remaining 97% being Kyrian. Not saying what you say is technically wrong, but saying that Venthyr Ret Paladins are doing +20’s, is a bit misleading. There are technically Kyrian Affliction Warlocks doing +20’s, but they make up 0.03%. I wouldn’t use that as evidence that the covenant is technically playable in M+

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