Say no more

7 Likes

This video is irrelevant and useless.

It talks about things that have been known for 14 years. Nothing new or interesting.

The only thing that is new in Classic is the queue system and how people more or less exploit the reward system by going for a fast loss instead of fighting for a slow win.

I want to point out 3 things about AV map balance:

  1. It’s a recreation and no one is exploiting the map in an unintended way. You don’t make changes in the name of balance in a recreation. You only hotfix exploits if needed.
  2. The map is not the main reason. It’s the queue and reward system that is the main reason where it’s more rewarding for the faction with a short queue to lose fast compared to win slow on a map that is designed for slow games.
  3. The map is not unbalanced if you take the whole battle into consideration. Try to play a premade vs premade with the main objective to win and you will see that. Horde have the advantage at the first half and Alliance the advantage in the last half of the battle. Unfortunately the current queue and reward system doesn’t reward winning enough so it’s more rewarding not to win for the faction with a short queue unless you can win fast, and you can’t if any side defends. This means that Alliance don’t get to see the last half of the battle when they have the advantage. So it makes sense that many people have this belief in Classic.

Some map balance details that haven’t changed for 14 years doesn’t somehow suddenly force Alliance to stand afk here and wait to lose:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/614081264751738920/757619011591733318/unknown.png

The queue and reward system does that. It’s more rewarding to wait for a quick loss than to fight for a slow win.

The asymmetric map balance absolutely have SOME part of this extreme result we see in Classic. But it’s in no way the main cause and even if it were, it could not be changed, because the map is not being exploited in any way and you don’t do “balance changes” in a recreation of a game. It’s being used for what it was designed for. The reward system is not. And the queue system is not authentic with one huge mega mono battlegroup for all servers.

Stop talking about the map, the map is irrelevant. Just look on what happened when they closed the backdoors, literally nothing. If you look on some older posts here people was convinced the backdoors made Alliance lose so much. But it did nothing. It’s even worse now. It’s the same damn map as always. The map have not changed but other things have changed. Talk about the things that matters and are relevant and that can actually be tweaked.

3 Likes

Ye is a disgrace, hopefully there will be some further changes to Classic av.

It is just too broken in this current form.

8 Likes

What do you disagree with and how much?

For example. Do you think that the queue and reward system have ANY part in the loss rate for Allaince? And if so, how much?

So far there have not been any changes but there have been 2 hotfixes where they closed to backdoors to the bases (they forgot one in the Horde base by the way) after Blizzard deemed them to be unintended. Is there any other similar feature in AV that you want to fix where you can present a good argument that it’s unintended? Do you think fixing the backdoors had any effect at all?

What have changed in Classic that have broken AV compared to Vanilla retail and all private servers?

This video is to the point and gives an accurate representation… Did you not watch it?

Alliance don’t want a ‘short queue to lose fast’ - obviously we want a short queue to win fast. But that’s never going to happen due to the map issues and nerfs explained in this video.

Of course it is… if you take the entire battle into consideration then we have a whole host of issues such as:
The Horde start 30% up the map, they have various points to choke the alliance, they have their GY’s in more proactive/closer locations to important landmarks and have things like the mountains around Alli’s Stormpike GY which can be used to choke Alliance at the GY spawn in order to easily take over Dun Baldar, whilst Alliance has multiple towers in a compact location at Frostwolf Keep which they have to pass, as well as GY’s to cap which are exceedingly close to other horde GY’s - meaning that horde can defend much more easily in their own territory compared to how Alli can defend in theirs.

ON TOP of all this… Horde have now won for so long that their average rank is 8 -12, whereas the average rank of Alliance is 4-8. How is that even a fair match when horde are already in the majority of their PvP pieces?

3 Likes

Yes, but we have known about these things for 15 years. So what is the point?

I know, but that is the system Blizzard choose.

You can’t win AV fast if the other faction doesn’t allow it. that is how the map is designed. It’s designed for long slow battles.

AV is DESINGED for hour long games. Korrak didn’t even spawn for 2h in the older versions. This has nothing do to with balance between factions, it has to do with the core design of that whole map. The older versions was MUCH slower.

Of course it’s not. Try a premade vs premade and see for your self.

Same for the Alliance. The whole damn map is design with various chokes. Just look on Stormpike and the Alliance base. Horde have the advantage at first half of the battle and Alliance have the advantage in the last half of the battle. As it was designed and intended based on faction lore. It’s a fun RP PvEvP map that was INTENDED not to be symetrical.

Ok, so what? Seriously, so what? The map is an authentic recreation of the 1.12.1 version. You can nit pick as many irrelevant FEATURS as you want. So what?

SO WHAT? I am saying that it’s the QUEUE and REWARD system that is the reason for that. Things that can actually be change because the queue is not authentic and the reward system is being exploited. the map is not. The map is not being exploited or used in an unintended way. It’s a recreation.

Why are people still talking about the map? The map is irrelevant. It’s even destructive to even talk about it like this. It ruins he game when people BELIVE it’s the map, when in reality it’s the queue and reward system that is to blame. The map is just a map, a recreation, the same map as, IT’S NOT THE MAP! And even if it was the map, it would still make no difference, because it’s a recreation and it’s not being exploited.

TRY to understand this simple fact.

The map have never changed in 15 years. Well, except when they closed the backdoors in Classic because people was convinced that was why Horde won so much. Do you remember that? It was only a couple of weeks ago.

Anyway

The win ratio have changed to an EXTREME result that have never been seen before anywhere anytime. Not in Vanilla retail and not on any private server. And not even in freaking Classic itself. Alliance used to win most AVs at AV release, and that was before they played in premades. What have changed? Not the map anyway.

Again, the map hasn’t changed.

So what has changed?

Think about that.

Then look on this screenshot I took some days ago:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/614081264751738920/757619011591733318/unknown.png

And ask yourself. Is it map balance that forces these Alliance to wait for a quick and efficient loss instead of fighting. Or is the queue and reward system that rewards them for a quick loss compared to fighting for a slow win so that they choose to wait on that hill?

It is the map design and the fact that Horde has better pvp players. There is no “quick” loss for Alliance. Horde decides when the BG ends (around 30-40mins). The reward for Alliance players is usually really bad compared to Horde: There are many games in which Alliance can’t even reach 100 reputation in a 30-40 minute game. Bonus honor is also ridiculously low. Every other BG is more rewarding in less time.

@Bodiesan - MVP!

Av is beyond commenting, not even playing.
I got sick from it in January, even tho was far better back then, at least regarding bots and win:lose ratio…
How can older players still play it, I realy cant understand. Not judging, just cant understand
:frowning:

1 Like

Average horde player (not even watching the vid): “Its all alliance propaganda and git gut”

2 Likes

The 1.5 version of the AV map would still be a recreation, and a much more reasonable change than game changes you have asked for yourself.

Unlike the version we are stuck with now, the 1.5 version didn’t really reward afking since games were longer, and reputation gains were significantly lower if you weren’t active yourself.

You do realise that the current reward system is a result of changes in the same patches as the map changes the video is talking about?

The 1.12 version. Surely you know that?

Wrong. It’s less than 15 years since patch 1.8 was released.

Wrong again. Atleast get your facts straight. By the looks of it you are more interested in keeping the status quo in AV rather than keeping an actual recreation of vanilla. That’s not very convincing.

Horde is actually defending, causing the games to be longer. That’s the whole point of the map complaints. The map favours the horde when the game gets longer. That again is causing a large portion of alliance players to be afk from the start, as a result of the queue system.

2 Likes

Ok but no one have even suggested that map version in these threads. I am 100% for that map version. It would not help at all though with the 100% loss rate for Alliance because it’s even slower.

I have never asked for changes. I have only notified Blizzard about known exploits and I may have brainstormed ideas in the context of having fun discussions but I have never demanded a change per se.

Why are you even brining this map version up and acting like I don’t want that or that anyone doesn’t want it? I think EVERYONE wants that map version. I want that map, I love that map.

How have the Classic 1.12.1 map changed compared to the 1.12.1 Vanilla retail map or the 1.12.1 Private server map?

Is that you don’t want to understand or that you can’t understand? I am compared the 1.12.1 map with other 1.12.1 maps, obvioulsy.

People did in fact claim that the backdoors made Horde win AV. But it turned out that it had literally 0 effect to the win rate by closing them. Do I need to start link threads?

Straw Man dishonest comment. You are distorting my argument and attacking the distortion. What you wrote here is the opposite what I am saying and what I want.

This is correct. I would phrase it more like, causing games to be more as intended though. AV games was never intended to only last 15-30min. Korrak didn’t even spawn until after 2h in older versions.

This is not correct.

The reward system favors the faction with a long queue when any faction defends.

BINGO

I agree, the main issue is the queue and reward system. The map balance may have some part of the situation but it can’t be rebalanced so it’s pointless to blame that. The map is by design slow and that favors the faction with a long queue with this reward system that is easy to be exploited in an unintended way by being inactive.

There will never be any changes to Classic in the way you want them to be. This is not a new IP. This is a 15 year old IP like Bodesian have stated too many times, but what you retail boomers seem to not get.

Sure!!! Like they did with black lotus, battlegrounds queues, layering and mega realms.

AHAHAH! Get lost smelly greenskin

Look this guy, hopefully Blizzard reads this and realizes what kind of mistake they did giving these criers power AGAIN.

all 3 pvp maps favour horde unfortunately. as do the racial skills. mostly it is still enjoyable but AV is a HUGE exception.
i dont blame anyone for botting or afking in AV and wish I knew how to do it myself. it is the only way to ever have a chance at exalted.

The fact that Blizzard just lets this run its course is beyond me.

one faction lives under the delusion that they are vastly superior and get a 60min+ Q for it, the other side simply goes into afk mode. both sides are worse off

Is that

Or did you just prove the orcs point?

In a perfect minmaxed setup, premade vs premade, in wsg Alliance > Horde.
In AB under the above meantioned conditions horde > alliance.
Racials dont matter that much as people make it sound like.
I would rather have escape artist on all my melee and casters as horde in both wsg and AB.
Perception is super strong vs rogue when they are on ninja dutie in AB.

But ma fears wotf op…

One faction lives under the delusion that the other faction lives under a delusion that they are vastly superior.

Alliance is vastly superior Faction in Vanilla in both PvE and PvP. They win in all PvE content and stomp Horde in organized pvp. Horde just have less noobs in pugs. Horde puggers are generally more motivated aka less inactive.

I have run 1000s of flags in both sides. The horde fence is much better FC protection than alliance. you can juke alliance players much easier than the other way round. alliance ToT is easy to walk to and offers less LoS.

to be clear, the skill cap for a horde FC (know the GY jump, understand the ToT) is about 1/10th of that for an alliance player. plus horde gets shamans who, together with priests, will strip your FAP, buffs, HoTs, NS.

AB and AV for obvious reasons.

the racials you mention dont matter. what matters is ork stun immunity and warstomp. WotF is OK but not game changing. gnome is the best alli racial i agree but nothing like ork.

the bottom line is that horde >> alli for PvP and alli>horde for pve, which doesnt really matter