Immunity to damage whilst not being able to deal damage and be forced into hardcast heals, meanwhile shamans: Oh yeah we can still do full damage/healing, restore full mana AND still get a defensive up.
This isn’t even close of which ability is better, it goes even harder in BGs with a team behind you and world PvP where you take little damage riptide still has more value than other wrist runes, a paladin without bubble might just say: I AM RIGHT HERE KILL ME THANKS.
Bubble has outplay potential, SR doesn’t to the same degree.
I’ve seen shamans take 5 of such “PvE” geared players and obliterated them all(was before any non existent nerf). That’s 20k hp worth of damage dealt… should every alliance player run around on living flame with over 20k hp?
It’s almost as if some of us are interested in the game actually being dynamic and fun, and can provide criticism and points against their own classes! amazing isn’t it :o.
And then once again you’re just completely disingenuous:
Paladins do the same thing, over and over. Repentence → Set up seals (HoJ if they trinket) → Crusader Strike + Judgement. This right here is the most boring and obnoxious gameplay there is. There’s no variety based on class, it doesn’t make a difference if rogues are attacking you, in my last 4 weeks of playing SoD I didn’t see a single ret equip a shield, opt to kite or use any of the options they have against melee classes. Why? Cause they’re the big fish in the pond. They’re a hybrid class that is dominating other Melee classes. It’s absurd, and poor game design. Hence why people are complaining about it.
But your points on these classes are valid;
Flame shock spamming into LB is lame AF. I personally would invite the idea of removing lava burst entirely, it’s ruined any ele shaman gameplay. Shamans have become worse for it placing all their efforts into dmg rather than survivability. Something which I believe should be the staple of a hybrid class in SoD they’re just fire mages with mail.
Perhaps there should be some shared CD on decoy totem and grounding totem
Druids applying 2 dots + starfall is boring
KS spam is ridiculous.
BUT, THIS IS NOT A THREAD ABOUT ANY OF THOSE CLASSES. IT’S ABOUT HOW PEOPLE STRUGGLE AGAINST PALADINS. This is really not a hard concept to understand.
This right here is the problem. BUBBLE IS A DEFENSIVE COOLDOWN! It shouldn’t be worth going invincible to do dmg, it’s an option to provide more survivability in a situation that’s appropriate. I’ve not once seen a warrior complain that they don’t do dmg while using shield wall. This is why I say you should have no input into balance, you’re incapable of holding a fair opinion. You can’t look at things beyond your own struggles. Anyone who struggles with paladins is bad at the game, but any time you struggle with: -insert spell here- that’s the only issue that matters. No matter the amount of people who are tired of paladins doing 8 hits in 1 global.
I’d love to see you as an enhance shaman, in a game of WSG run into the oposing team with shammy rage up, 2h wep out and survive. Not even kill anyone or make contact with anyone, just run into the centre and run out. Who wants a bet which CD serves best there?
Once again you completely lack the ability to apply context to any of these complaints about Shammy rage and barkskin. Is it the skill itself that’s OP or the specs/set ups able to abuse it? Why don’t you take a second to think of it from the context of a resto or enhance shaman, 2 specs I’d argue that are in desperate need of a wall/defensive. It’s completely bad faith, you come from the point of the most OP set up and argue the most fringe points. No one believes a tank shaman needs shammy rage, no one would argue that ele shamans need to have unlimited mana. But resto shamans are incredibly weak to things such as stuns and silences. Enhance shamans tend to need an answer to CC and high dmg as their healing tends to be pathetic. Perhaps the issue lies with the 2 lame specs rather than the skill itself.
r14 enhance shaman here with full blood moon off pieces. I quit SoD 4/5 weeks into phase 7 because I had enough of getting globalled by paladins with worse gear than me and then because to use your favourite phrase paladins are quite clearly the “FOTM” currently, every other alli I saw was one. - But I wasn’t allowed to complain about that, people like yourself and the other paladin mains either claim I’m lying or there’s some nefarious set up as if I was just out to get paladins nerfed for the fun of it. It wasn’t that for beat a pala in a few pieces of t1+t2 I had to jump through hoop after hoop and then if they caught me, or I didn’t have my appropriate CD/setup ready I’d have 60-75% of my health deleted instantly
“been on both sides” this is BS, you talk like this constantly yet exclusively pander to anything paladin related. You couldn’t even simply say “Yes paladins are imbalanced”:
You aren’t unbias, and as said earlier you degrade all the threads you engage into petty insults and pointless comments cause it to become a tribalist mess.
This is a huge part of the class design in this iteraction of the game. The class was thought up with the intention to mitigate spells and attempts to kite with things such as dispells, blessings and auras while having them be 8% faster than most other classes naturally. But in SoD you can chose to have a slow, or an interupt through runes, both of which were missing previously! It just requires a more well rounded gameplay.
Paladins have so much available to them it’s actually insane that you genuinely think you’re lacking anywhere. They practically every option and mechanic availble to them, but you’re still not happy because they don’t last long enough? Because shamans get a longer duration sprint?
It’s pathetic. If you can’t acknowledge how good you have it, and can only ever echo the same crap that no one is arguing against you will never be satisfied.
So you can’t CC/deal damage/kite/dispel/outright kill a shaman that has SR? Divine shield has gotten me out of a lot worse than having mana for all the mana hungry spells.
I don’t think SR is even busted, the problem is with Way of Earth and the fact they still haven’t figured how to make a shaman tank without it being picked by specs that shouldn’t really have it.
I don’t think you understood at all what I was saying there, read it again. My point was that the game is a mess and obliterating people “because they wear PvE gear” is the lamest excuse.
I know shamans can do it, boomkins and hunters can too in certain favorable scenarios. Ideally no one should be able to.
You using that excuse to deflect criticism when paladins do it- “they were pve geared” is just arguing in bad faith.
At the same time playing one of the classes capable of such destruction and whining and pretending like you are such an underdog is why you don’t get much sympathy on this forum.
Sorry not remembering you there, but the majority of haters just says: “But Bubble” “But Paladin”
The neat thing is, you don’t even need to setup if someone just rides within melee range outside of BGs.
Are paladins dominating other melee classes by a large margin, not entirely, proper rogues still decide to play with you as if you were a cat chasing their wool ball. Enhance shamans play the same dice as we do, arguably worse but having a sprint/stun in one button is just mindblowing when rogues cough in 5min CD sprints. Enhance isn’t that bad compared to ret, in raids yes they have their issues but PvP they don’t.
Same gameplay they couldn’t even want to execute on overload LS shamans as they die before shaman is dead, especially if they get flame shocked ontop.
So are other defensive CDs and you still get to do full damage, there’s no penalty from using a defensive CD. Just upsides, unless you talk about warrior which shares his CDs with wall, reck and retaliation.
Even barkskin nerfs partially your DPS by increasing casttime if the rune is not in effect.
Paladin lose half their DPS for immunity (which leaves it as a CC break and heal at best), Priests get 90% DR, but can’t use GCDs at all, Shamans get 20% DR+Innervate+No noticable drawback.
In short shaman favoritsm regarding defensives and it is painful to watch as from a balancing point this is kind of insane.
And a majority of horde players should have a say what should get nerfed and what not? Y’all aren’t unbiased as much as you would like to, failing to see the short comings of classes and completely don’t bother with counters/outplay potential.
Then why make it oppressive overall instead of using the technology they very much have to make it spec different? Like we see tech that prevents certain runes only being triggered when certain talents have been selected or used, like holy shock being the only way to trigger the Shock and Awe rune + do well with Infusion of Light or that setbonuses do not work against players?
Give enhance the wall if you desire it so badly, give resto the wall or mana restoration and ele the mana restoration as that is terrible. But for the love of god don’t combine a mana restoration with a defensive which is active for 25% of the time (15s of 60s).
It is completely overkill for a tankshaman needing MORE mana when their shield mastery restores % mana per block or ele needing a wall when they suffer from mana issues in the raid. Then that would already be more fair than whatever we got right now.
Wolves are an entire different discussion because it was an enhance ability to begin with.
And I had enough with getting deleted and outhealed by tank shaman/druids sniping me with their nukes/killshot spamming huntards, thus I am just PvPing when I go to naxx or to piss on someone. Remainder is spent on alts.
/sarcasm Sounds like facing any ranged + shaman or paladin to me at this point because that is incredibly fun whilst they also burrow away if they got it /sarcasm
If you enjoy torturing yourself with swapping to the shield to use AS and then reset swing timer be my guest, you can ask any ret which rune they have on legs and the answer will be either AM or Tremor totem. You can have tools but when they are inconvient to use if you are not the intended spec it is unlikely to be worth it. Not to mention that a few classes can just remove it by dropping decoy/shapeshift or charge.
The only thing being pathetic is that all this talk yet people haven’t played a paladin and lack experience. Heck just to prove that point I would even boost you on alliance for free just for you to “enjoy” broken paladin gameplay.
Stop equating them as though they’re skills that can be compared unilaterally. Barkskin can be used during stuns, in all forms and allows for uninterrupted casting - which in most scenarios in pvp is more valuable than mana regen. Even more so when it comes to SoD as fights barely last long enough for resource management to even be an issue. The downside in comparison to both of the skills you’ve brought up is it’s the only one that can’t be used within CC. Personally I’d sacrifice the mana regen or even have it increase the cost of spells for that capability, or have it slow the caster. It requires predicting CC or burst from the opponent. Luckily it can be used during silence.
Bubble can be used during any CC, and obviously makes you completely immune. Complaining about anything to do with bubble is ridiculous, it’s a staple of the class and everyone knew paladins would have it and that it would be a powerful skill for a large investment through forbearance and large CD. If these things weren’t the case and it could easily be spammed that would be unbelievable.
Shamans also have no hard CC outside of a 5min CD, which is clunky to rely on as wolves stun doesn’t always immediately hit and lasts 2s.
All of these as context are important when it comes to balancing a class.
Probably not, but you get very minimal pushback when complaining about shamans compared to paladins. There’s quite literally a gang of the same people doing paladin PR on both the US and EU forums, and you’re one of them.
People accept shaman criticism, paladins will argue against any problem that the masses have and argue ridiculous points such as they need the burst because they get kited. As if no other melee class is kitable.
I wouldn’t argue against it, but it’s hardly a priority compared to others. I’m sure there’s problems with removing it in raids, but I’m not the one to speak to that as idgaf about raiding. For the exact reason I couldn’t say “get rid of seal twisting” for paladins. They’ve based the entire gameplay around that.
The difference is no one is saying that doesn’t happen. Paladin mains unapologetically argue against any balance complaint, calling BS and trying to force context such as “PVE gear”.
We’re having this conversation because you have joined a thread complaining about paladins specifically being unbalanced basically trying to make out they’re not.
If your complaint is you don’t have a slow as a ret paladin but then refuse to use the one offered by your runes that’s your problem. Most shamans run earth shield, even as enhance, but I found I would be killed way too easily unless I had way of earth as a defensive option against warrs and rogues. Most would run wolves all the time, I found earthbind roots to be more beneficial when it came to a lot of situations my class and spec struggled with. The GCD and swing timer are things that exist in classic and vanilla because they were a clear problem when there was no downside to swapping gear in combat. Anyone chosing to PVP knows this, but good players opt to accept that downside for the benefits it gives.
Gatekeeping balance talk by saying people have to have played all classes to have an opinion is ridiculous. I’ve played this game for far too many years, and played all the classes up to WOTLK in that time, as have most people because this game is old as hell. Paladins even with runes are barely any different from any of those iterations of the class. The way they play hasn’t changed, they get a few more abilities to press which is great, and not the issue. The issue is the amount of dmg they do, consistently in a short window.
I appreciate your balance points over certain abilities, I’d admit they’re an interesting approach. But I’d hold so much more stock in what you’ve said if you weren’t on some crusade to defend any criticism of paladins.
And I have never enjoyed paladin gameplay, and have never enjoyed the OP class of the week gameplay. Hence why I played an enhance shaman and destro lock.
I see at least 1 post each week on the forums about how BS paladins are, that means something, whether it’s by 20 noobs or 20 pros.
Look at this paladin trying to stay the OP class no mather what. everyone has acces to T2 piece and ZG pieces realllyyyy quickly. it doesnt take much for apaldin to be able to one shot. for shaman i agree they need to be nerfed too, but not if the paladins arent nerfed. first paladins then shamans.
Or you could just all accept that PVP is a minigame and Blizzard don’t care about it. SoD has limitted resources as it is without having to rebalance the game every patch because somebody else can abuse a new change to one-shot people.
Or you could accept there’s a community that enjoy a game for its PVP. Almost as though the game has a history spanning back 2 decades, some of which wasn’t entirely dedicated for PVE.
Or perhaps you could not ignore the fact there’s been 7 phases of this version of classic wow with the main focus being raiding.
Or you could just not be a passive aggressive nob and take your opinions to threads dedicated to the part of the game you enjoy.
Find it funny when Wave comes to defend paladins. I will admit tho he is right about one thing, Orc racial is stupid OP. Wave happy his class now automatically brings him to purple and above parses, since he couldn’t in any prev phase. Now he’s magically improved beyond imagination!
I joined the conversation initially to confirm the OP’s suspicions; Paladins are in fact, the hero class. Except what the OP didn’t mention is that Paladins are also the superior class in PVE (the main game).
Wave then jumped in with his old ‘but a shaman touched me in my no-no area’ mantra.
Which is the exact problem with PVP players. You can’t talk about one problem in the game (Paladins) without somebody using a whataboutism arguement; ‘But what about shamans?!??!’, in this scenario.
I don’t disagree, I just think it’s a dickmove to try and stop people from enjoying the game however they want. even if that involves PVP, and having some of the focus be taken away from raiding for once.
I would say there’s plenty of PVE content currently available. But you look on the forums and PVER’s are making as many requests as possible to avoid playing that part of the game.
I’m not the one stopping you. I’m simply telling you that in Classic (the game that SoD is created from) PVP is a minigame. Balancing PVP would mean either changing the entire game or adding resilience.
Classic PVPers have this odd tendancy to cry about resilience though. Apparently everybody 2 shotting each other is fun?
Why would they do that? Again, PVP is a minigame and there aren’t many of you that enjoy it. Definitely not enough to warrent taking resources away from the only area of the game that people legitimately play, anyway.
hunters can get their killshot spam the second they completed heart of doom quest.
be happy others need gear to actually be “broken”, if you want to be peak annoying just do that.
CC being stuns/disables I assume? Or do you include roots and all the others aswell, bother to define it at least. CC is overall definition of control.
Don’t need it, if you can interrupt people from healing and casting, wolves don’t only CC but also additional stuff.
Not all of em.
Melee hunter laughing with paladin in the tavern.
Yet this discussion always has been a thing since p4, don’t pretend otherwise thanks.
Yet it is a consideration when you talk about class balance, because gotta consider matchups. Too bad devs haven’t cared enough and just do things nilly willy without a care in the world.
aslong it ain’t one class nerfed each patch and actually same time it would be fair, but doing one class before others screams favortism.
oh you don’t know but he is a smug nob everytime he feels like PvE is superior and all that, dont listen to that thing.
we know that parses only count for your own class and spec?
Great input on a thread that’s been made with PVP in mind. Invaluable actually. Do you really have to have it spelled out to you why people interested in PVP have little to no interest in you bringing this up? Would you also enjoy telling someone performing an opening act that no one’s there to see them and only paid to see the main act? You’re commenting on how PVPers talk about whataboutisms while bringing up the most redundant point. You’ve got your “main game” go kill your boars and leave people to discuss whatever part of the game they want to, in whatever way the want to.
wow was more or less balanced around PVP at least up until WOTLK. There was almost no patches as far as I can remember adjusting class design around PVE content in that time, but there would constantly be adjustments made for those classes out performing in PVP. To this day wow is no where close to the numbers in WOTLK and often remembered as some of the best days in WOW for a large part of the fanbase.
To me, it seems as though it’s the far more sensible option to actually base game balance with PVP in mind as regardless of how many people do or don’t play it, it’s still a game mode provided by the devs of this game and the war in warcraft is a huge part of its identity, at least in these older versions. Then adjust PVE values around that. A much easier way to facilitate your entire fanbase rather than segregating part of them and then trying to fix it after the fact. Also, it wasn’t PVE raiding videos that grabbed peoples attention to seek out vanilla private servers. PVP videos for one are a huge reason there’s even a classic option to begin with, SoD would get a much bigger fanbase if the large wow streamers were promoting the game like they were during… I dunno… the STV event when it launched? PVP is evergreen, and when done right will always attract more players to the game. No one was coming back for Nax, and Kara Crypts was popular for a few weeks during release.
They made PVP realms, they added PVP events and they re-itemized existing PVP gear. If they didn’t want people to give feedback on PVP, play PVP, complain about class balance and ask for changes to be made specifically based on PVP there’s a pretty obvious way to avoid all of that happening. Maybe PVP would be more popular if the game encouraged it more!
But to be clear, i don’t have any expectation of that happening, but those are just a few examples of why I would say it should