So time ran out on talent trees for DF

Im curious as to what classes and speccs feel well heard and communicated to from Blizzard. Formost speak for your main class but if you play plenty of classes/speccs feel free to do so either way.

I main a ret and what i feared might happen did happen as there wasent much time between DF announcement and launch, and talent trees are no small feat to make them work in a satisfying way.

Paldins is a bare bones class to begin with, several ranks for attacks and wings even now when lvling so ofc those ranks became talents. For the rest of the trees they just threw in borrowed power that we got over the last 3 expansions (all of them nerfed versions) and for some reason had a consecration fettish. Nothing new was added, none of our curent problems solved but they sure added some new ones (mainly prot).

Worst of all was that near none of the feedback even in the US forums was heard/answered unlike most other classes from what i can tell on this side of the fence.

And thats why i ask the rest how you perceive this.

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First off the didnt say it is finished, they said that they zre going to shift focus to tuning and bug fixes, also you as a retri dont be discouraged from what i see in heroic dungeons right now in DF retri does is improved atm in dmg tbh. Also the gaurdian druids i played with are solid enough.

Im not worried about dmg, that can be tuned. Im worried about the function of our tree to begin with. As soon as i can specc ret while lvling, i can get wings when someone dies with aura, but wings itself i can first get at lvl 26.

Holy have talents in their tree for hammer of wrath but hammer of wrath is learned in the general tree.

Zealots paragon in the general tree is another talent that revolves around hammer of wrath, but i dont need to take hammer of wrath to get it. Do you see where im going with this?

They built our trees as if Hammer of wrath was a basic skill for all paladins, its not! And same goes for Wings, as all speccs have talents revolve around wings but we must also specc into wings. Its an unfinished mess that wasent thought through. All speccs also have divine toll in their specialation tree and several other talents are the same, does any other class have this issue?

And lets not start with our nerfed mobility in DF compared to SL. All other melee has a mobility skill as a basic skill all learn, we dont. Our selfhealing is heavaly nerfed in pvp, its like entering with a perma MS debuff and then add the actual MS debuff. Main deff dispellable while making us choose between a deff CD we had in the past and what we have now while we should have both.

As i said, dmg can be tuned and we will probably remain mid tier or even top mid tier. We dont bring utility, offhealing is by far better on paper then in practice and our tree is a mess. Communication from devs has been near dead silent and we have had plenty of buggs on many of our abilities that has yet to be fixed.

So yheaā€¦ imo the whole class has plenty of issues not just ret.

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Not the point of this rework. Most specs in the game got nothing new in DF.

And at what level do you think you get Avenging Wrath in SL? (itā€™s 37)

They adressed this in the very first talent revel, itā€™s just that most people donā€™t care to read in such detail.

  • ā€œDoes this mean itā€™s possible to make very ā€˜badā€™ builds?ā€

    • In short, yes. There are limits and guardrails here, such as those abilities that are automatically given. And furthermore, our goal in designing the trees is not to trap players in complicated choices in order to make a functional build; in fact, itā€™s the oppositeā€”itā€™s to set up the trees with intuitive paths that lead you to reasonable builds. But a key philosophy of this rework is to keep the player in the driverā€™s seat of their characterā€™s growth within their class.
  • ā€œDoes this mean that some of my points are spent on somewhat ā€˜obviousā€™ choices, and arenā€™t likely to be moved?ā€

    • Often, yes. 61 points is drastically more than the 7 that players currently have in Shadowlands. And it would probably be a mistake if all 61 points were always heavily in playā€” this is part of how we maintain the balance alluded to above, where itā€™s not overwhelming to make and analyze builds. The tree contains a spectrum of more basic abilities all the way to comparatively advanced ones, and one of the advantages of this system is letting you draw that line.

Mobility is overrated, Iā€™d rather if they made plate classes as mighty glaciers, slow but strong offense and defense. IMO if you want mobility play a leather class.

Ask for the same offhealing as prot then, because theirs is fine.

Not saying the trees donā€™t have their issues but it feels like a lot of the stuff you choose to complain about are the most irrelevant ones.

To say so, means you have completely missed the point. Numbers were never the ret problem.

The only reason you see retri performance performing good is because of nathrezim powers and how much 2ndaries we have at this point. Depending on preference you stack either mastery or haste on gear and take 2nd stat from nathrezim . And only then you perform decently . If you are unlucky and have vers crit on gear well GL trying to do any numbers

Oh yes they were. Retri have been garbage tier dps all SL untill season 4.

Letā€™s be honestā€¦
They pushed the release off a late2023 xpack into a 2022 xpack release.

The ā€œReleaseā€ we will get is simply a disguised Beta.
Season 1 will be a disaster.
Season 2 will be unpopular because off this.
Season 3 (and 4?) will be ded.

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Well deserved.
Go play DK or Warrior.

Retri is just a weird combination off a warrior with a holy priest.

Druid is - imo - RIP.
Feels chopped off and asked to pick 2 out if 4 limbs.
Guardian is worst off ln specc-individual tree from my checksā€¦

Imo: the new trees are justā€¦ not fun.

2 out of 5 limbs. :eyes:

Humans have 4 limbs. I know what you are trying to say but thats not a limb in the same senseā€¦ and for me it would still be 4, as im a woman. :sweat_smile:

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Maybe but thats not the issue. The issue is that is a spec that at is cannot be fixed with any amount of number tuning.
Mediocre group utilities, a very slow rotation which is basically fixed in to balance the uber power of wings, way to much dependency on haste just to flow without downtime every two spell.
0 cleave and youā€™re either ST or AOE.
Those are the real issues.

I think the design of separating utility into class tree and rotational stuff etc on spec was an excellent idea, but the trees have too much power in them, and choice nodes seem a bit redundant. Needs to be less CC and mobility in general in game imo

Might not have been but Ret has stagnated long ago, last time we got something new was in Legion with wake of ashes and steed. And the steed cost us a lot in the mobility front as it replaced several other talents meaning it was an outright nerf.

Yes this works in the current system when everyone actually gets wings when lvling, with talent trees we dont. Thats why it should be a basic toolset from the get go!

Can you give me an example from mage. Can you get talents that buffs icy veins without getting icy veins?
Why dont fire mages have to specc into hot streak? Can they specc ino combustion talents without combustion?
Arcane mages must specc into clearcasting to advance further down the tree where later they can get more clearcasting talents.

These talent trees are thought through, to buff one talent you MUST have the base talent! This is not the case for paladins!

I would agree with this if paladins were hard to stop like DKs and have gapclosers. We can now sit in roots for the full duration, we cant spam slows and we can be slowed while on steed.

If mages only had 1 blink and no talents to buff it or reset CDs and suddenly one expansion they decided to more then tripple the CD of blink, that is paladin mobility development over the last 18 years.

You talking about offhealing or selfhealing? Two very different things. Prot pals BASE WoG heals for 315% spell power and increases by 250% based on missing health if cast on self, can be talented to do the same on others now in SL. I dont know how often Prot offheals others in PVE but in DF Avenger sheild no longer generates Holy power and many have complained about being HoPo starved, they wont be using WoG on others.

Now the Rets counterpart is only if talented and its at 100% (in pvp its 50%). Must also point out to you WoG in pvp is already nerfed down to 60% of its original healing.

So with all those nerfs for Ret selfhealing/offhealing when compared to prot do you think even for a second that they would allow Prot like healing for ret??

And now ill go into why offhealing is so overrated

  • Its the healers job
  • All other classes have selfheaing
  • All other classes have deff CDs
  • Nearly all other classes even have a minibubble

So for offhealing to have value, all of the above must have failed!

Edit:

Care to give an example as to what you think is a relevant issue? Guy that thinks mobility is overrated, think talents that dont do anything if the base talent was skipped isent a design flaw and thinks that offhealing would fix anything for Ret. Also didnt mention the lack of communication from the devsā€¦ minor stuff.

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if i play DF i will probably play a druidā€¦ itā€™s the class i always wanted to play but never really did.

i mean feralā€¦

i did main resto tree back in tbc ā€¦

They should just go back to Wrath levels of mobility, CC and anti CC, seemed so much more balanced with it then

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