So we're now cool with the Horde?


In that case I do not think we can consider what she does as officially representative of the Alliance’s sentiments, as, if that were the case, they would have probably set up the trial to allow for such.

Here is what I disagree with. I am not convinced Tyrande actually believes what she is presenting, at least not fully. As far as I remember, she was not a pov character, so her thoughts are unknown.

Her tactic in the trial was to paint a picture of orcs, or orcish culture, as traditionally violent, to convince the Celestials that Garrosh would not change, to ensure a strict punishment. I am open to the possibility that this was purely/mostly a court tactic, and not her honest beliefs, which is quite common.

True, but there is a difference between prosecuting an institution and blaming everyone in that institution for the actions of a few.

(Zarao) #82

Forsaken, Nightborne, Blood elves,…
All of them went Horde because the Alliance couldn’t, or wasn’t willing, to differentiate them from certain individuals.

If i recall correctly, you stated the Horde was incapable of doing such, whilst the Alliance could.

As the game’s story has gone, i think the rule has been the other way around. Without looking far, Jaina recently threw Theramore at Baine of all people.


The forsaken joined the Horde because the Alliance did not know any better. They had just had their kingdoms devastated by the undead. It was not that they chose not to differentiate forsaken and scourge. They had no idea, or evidence, that the two were separate. And you know what? Do you know the best part of this is? They were right. The forsaken are monsters. The only difference between them and the scourge is that they have the choice to commit evil.

The Nightborne joined the Horde because they had become far too removed from Night Elf culture, and because their leader was salty because the Night Elf leader had reservations about their motivations. They regardless helped save the Nightborne, who repaid them by doing nothing when their new allies who differentiate between people, perhaps too much, burned down Teldrassil.

The Blood Elves joined the Horde due to lingering resentment from Garithos and because of Alliance espionage, not because the Alliance could not differentiate them.

You do not.

Ah, remind me again, who commited the most recent genocide? And the one before that. And the one before that. In fact, started out as a faction to commit genocide and has not changed that ever?

Ah yes, I remember that scene. I believed it occured in the cinematic “Zarao’s Imagination”. Quite a lot happened in there.

(Zarao) #84

A differentiation that the Horde was capable of doing.
If only because Tauren pointed it out.

Something that Alliance speaking, nobody could. Even Anduin acknowledges them failing to do so.

Thalyssra directly states that Tyrande’s belief drove them away. And regardless of how you want to spin it to somehow pin it at the Nightborne’s feet, “having reservations about their motivations” because they are comparing them with both Elisande and Azshara, already points at the Alliance (or a portion of it), being incapable or unwilling to differentiate groups from individuals.
Even if astonishingly enough, those same guys had sided with them against those individuals.

Interesting how you gloss over stuff like sabotage, espionage, etc.
You do realise that’s the Alliance again failing to realise or acknowledge those were different from the ones that wronged them right?.

Really? Mind explaining this?:

Why is any of the above relevant, regarding whether the Alliance is capable of differentiating individuals from groups?.

Kinda wish this cinematic was indeed my imagination.

Anyway, don’t want to get wrapped in this again. Said everything i intended.


The people who had not had their kingdoms ruined by the undead, and less of a reason to be afraid of them. There are some nuances here you gloss over.

And they were right to do so, because the forsaken are just like the scourge.

It drove Thalyssra away.

She did not compare anyone to Azshara or Elisande. She wanted affrimation that Thalyssra would not turn out the same way.

No. It proves that one person in the Alliance has reservations about powerful arcane magic users, with good reason. The fact that you describe the event like that shows that you are incapable or unwilling to differentiate groups from individuals… Talk about embarassing.

They hid beneath a dome and did next to nothing during the war.

I pointed it out. Interesting you glossed over that.

No…because that was never stated as being their motivation. You are just making things up, like always.

Read it again, then read your claim about what I said.

Horde Warchief: “Prepare to seize Teldrassil!”
Some dying Night Elf: “I do not believe my people will be demoralized by this.”
Horde Warchief: “Welp, I guess this is true for all Night Elves. Burn it!”
The rest of the Horde, including the Nightborne, Blood Elves and Forsaken: “I am
okay with this.”

Like, your whole point was that the Horde is better at differentiating between people than the Alliance, when history shows that the opposite is true. Why must I explain your own viewpoints to you?

I mean it is. Nowhere in that cinematic does Jaina “throw” Theramore at Baine. What happens was that you saw me say the Alliance is better at differentiating people than the Horde, decided you did not want that to be true, and your mind rewrote the cinematic to be what you wanted it to be, in your head.

The same will probably happen with the paragraph above, like how you claimed I glossed over the Alliance espionage in sentence where I literally wrote about the Alliance espionage.

Translation: “I do not want to lose another argument against someone who clearly knows more than me. Said everything I wish were true. I have no intention of proving anything.”

(Erevien) #86

Like srsly Sylvanas was doing the best shots here by trying to get Garrosh killed by poison like this until Vereesa chickened out and Anduin could get Garrosh a chance he didn’t deserve because he did the same thing again anyways with the iron Horde. Also to blame, Wrathion. When he and Anduin work together trouble follows by default.

(Anouk) #87

We are friends now!

I have already cuddled with Lor’Themar :heart:


I am disgusted by the toxic narrative that Blizzard is pushing with Jaina. The idea that she is always too weak on her own to pull herself together and couldn’t possibly keep her mental sanity without Daddy Thrall coming to her rescue. Big yikes. I hope Jaina is just messing with Thrall and in 8.3 she sticks an icicle between his eyes.

(Anouk) #89

Jaina really likes :cucumber: :smirk:


It’s all :cucumber: in the end, isn’t it? Let’s throw away a decade of brilliant character development to force the narrative that Jaina is weak and mad without Thrall taking care of her.

(Araphant) #91

Kalec can date Aggra in the Spurned Lovers limbo.

(Zarao) #92

Jainas mood swings are nothing new.

Blizzard has been failing to keep a consistent character out of her since Theramores bombing.

(Elyssarain) #93

Jaina do actual major and lasting damage to the Horde? Say it’s not so! We’ll have a decade of complaints about the like-10 Orgrimmar guards she kills.

Adds a new section to the ‘but Taurajo and 5 Sunreaver guards’ meme


As a side note, Blizzard please bring back the Ignore function so that I can block Zarao and the other dieheard Sylvanas stans.

Jaina do actual major and lasting damage to the Horde? Say it’s not so! We’ll have a decade of complaints about the like-10 Orgrimmar guards she kills.

Adds a new section to the ‘but Taurajo and 5 Sunreaver guards’ meme

She killed two guards in cold blood, this means that she should be r*ped by the entire Horde army for what she did. #HordeLogic.

Seriously, there was a guy on this forum once who said that Jaina should be abused by 40 grunts for what she did to those two Sunreaver guards, it’s disgusting that the Horde attracts such people.


It is a price I pay to let them post freely so that the word of Baine™ can be brought to the Story Forum with Justice and Peace. For the Shu’halo! For an end to the Baine-steak desires!

I’m sure there are equivalents on the Alliance mains. At the end of the day, the community is toxic. And I do not use that word lightly.

(Zarao) #96

Free speech is a beach isn’t it? It bursts those comfortable Echo chambers and bubbles every now and then.

The Zandalari lost their king because of her. And their fleet.

Edit: Even if I’m not really judgemental about it (it’s war after all), if your point is that Jaina hasn’t done much against the Horde, the Zandalari beg to differ.
And that’s only taking into account recent events.

(Anouk) #97

A beach full of litter, dangerous sea life and beautiful people in bathing attire. All being overwatched™ by very authoritarian lifeguards.



The Zandalari were not part of the Horde, only allied at that time. They are ahem very clear about their independence, recognising Sylvanas only as an ‘equal’ even now.

They didn’t lose their fleet and King just because of Jaina, both were destroyed by the Alliance to stop the Horde using them in the Blood War.

(Zarao) #99

You were speaking in present tense. And the Zandalari are now as involved with the Horde as most of the other races.
Harming them, is to harm the faction.


Oh hey look, a strawman!

Well, off to do other things. I shall prepare for my next round of reminders.