So we're now cool with the Horde?


(Uruk) #121

But were they though? I certainly remember Talanji giving us WQs to kill the Alliance and supply the Horde troops in Kul Tiras and that Zandalari captain sailing with us to gather azerite for the Horde on all those expeditions. Would you call that neutral?

Because if that’s the case, then Theramore was also neutral before it was bombed.

That I agree with. However, the major difference is that the Alliance chose to help gilneans after they were attacked while the attack on Zandalari happened because the Horde were helping them and vice versa. I will agree however that in the end both factions didn’t have their hands clean in both cases, although for a different reason.

I’d actually argue that this is exactly the point we are trying to prove. That it is wrong.

Fair enough.


(Zarao) #122

I feel like there is some miscommunication going on here. Specially after reading this:

Allow me to put you in context regarding this -rather absurd- derailment:

It was argued that Jaina had NOT harmed the Horde in any way. To that, i brought up the Zandalari example, and the fact the Alliance planned to raid the capitol, kill their king, etc.
I was answered that said events didn’t count, because the Zandalari weren’t part of the Horde and were neutral. Thus, any attack on them or their people (the events on both the raid and the Alliance war campaign), couldn’t be used as something that would be considered as something that harmed the Horde.

All the above, to put it mildly, i find utter bollocks.
Of course its to be considered as harmful for the Horde. It was explicitly conceived to harm the faction.

Now, the Gilneas example. I brought it up as a way to show that there are times when even perceived neutrality and the attacks suffered while considered such, can still be considered mid-long term speaking, as something that harmed the faction.
Gilneas has been used as a staple rallying cry by the Alliance. They considered themselves harmed by Sylvanas. Even if she blighted it while it was considered “Neutral”.

Not once did i use it as a way to vindicate, or even remotedly compare, with what happened with Zuldazar. Beyond the obvious point that i elaborated above.
And the branching arguments derived from this, kind of smell like nitpicking stuff caught with cursory glances at a post that people didn’t even bother reading.

(Also, heavily diluted by some collateral stuff that out of the blue people gave more relevance than its worth, but far and beyond the point as of now…)

ps: Can’t put any clearer than that.


(Blunderhoof) #123

That seemed rather overtly unnecesary….just because he has different view point than you do? Jeez.

In case of delusion and dishonesty, let’s be fair now, we all share in the bias, it’s how the whole faction war is set up to begin with, and no I’m not just talking about BFA.


(Uruk) #124

No, it’s because he said he’s egoistic. Having different views is fine to me, it’s what makes discussions interesting.

Some more, some less. It’s when the bias gets to ridiculous levels that I decide to draw a line personally.


(Zarao) #125

Did that. While being totally serious. Yup.
A hundred percent. No joking. Absolutely and definitely serious.
Like, dead serious.

Very.

A lot.
.
.
.
(:roll_eyes:)

I know it’s hard to convey or to note sarcasm, in a written piece. But damn

EDIT: And it’s rather telling, how the argument slowly drifted away from an already derailed sidetracking, and instead shifted to the point it’s no longer about what is said. But some crappy feature that should be secondary to everything else.
Way to give certain people some straw to hold on to.


#126

We get it dude, you don’t have to repeat it. We’re at least glad you’re honest with yourself and others.


(Uruk) #127

For your sake, I hope you were just joking. It’s hard to tell when you’re joking or not sadly.

But yeah, this has been derailed for a while, so I’ll just bow out.


(Zarao) #129

Yeah, I think we can all agree that subtle hints and innuendos such as these might be confused for serious declarations of honest and truthful message:

:man_facepalming:
Because that’s definitely how coherent or normal people talk and behave when making any point.

Anyway, you are right. This has been some time-wasting derailment.
From my part, I’ll just lament the fact that some joke (I didn’t have much control over), had to be handpicked to the point it hijacked an entire conversation.


(Uruk) #130

You’d be surprised tbh. Some people actually write stuff like that seriously. You wouldn’t be the first one. So don’t act like a smartass.


(Araphant) #131

I am sure we can keep discussing this, surely there are some intricate nuances we missed and which require proper coverage by our sharp analytical minds.


(Brigante) #132

Your faith in humanity is admirable…

(Briefly hopping off track before getting back on topic)
Sarcasm, self deprecation, and jovial mockery are all impossible to accurately convey, all the more so now that we have so many emoji’s, that the older ones are either losing their usage, or coming to mean the opposite of what they used to as people use -them- sarcastically. It is a diminishing way of conveying nuance, the best is face to face communication, as you have body language, facial expression, pitch and tone of voice, and finally, the actual words spoken. With telephones you only have pitch and tone of voice, and the words spoken. With text based communication, it is small wonder there are so many misunderstandings, you are just getting the words, devoid of all other contexts.

Anyway, back on track.

It isn’t that the Alliance and Horde are suddenly cool with each other, and with good reason, but sometimes the ‘greater threat’ angle does actually make sense, (If you have ever read the graphic novel ‘Watchmen’ you will know what I mean, the film version too, to a certain extent) and I do think this is one of those occasions. We just combined arms to drive the Legion from our world, as well, Horde vs Alliance becomes meaningless when we’re all dead/Legion slaves. Cool. We used that Coalition of forces to defeat Sargeras himself, and put him back in his box.

Everything’s cool.

Except it isn’t. Without that threat, the Horde and Alliance go to war again, this time with even worse savagery, Entire cities are turned to dust, the very lifeblood of the planet is weaponised, greater and greater weapons of atrocity are produced, new nations are dragged into the struggle, Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms are to be won by one faction alone…

But…

How can we have forgotten, why there -is- a Kalimdor and an Eastern kingdoms, not one continent.
How can we have forgotten, why the Legion were driven from our world that first time and Aszhara’s ‘Deal’
How can we have forgotten, what then lies beneath the waves, and what dread power is behind her.

This is an absolute game changer, Horde and Alliance squabble over the continents, Azeroth seems to have, much like our world, more seas than land. That’s her turf. For Millennia she has been content to wait, and allow us that conceit, to cross her territories and war upon each other without any hindrance. Why? Because it benefits her, and benefits N’zoth. Hmm, Didn’t the Horde and Alliance just exhaust their grand fleets, lose so many soldiers, that they are now desperate to conquer, once and for all? Didn’t they just banish and imprison Sargeras, the entity who would have done Aszhara and N’zoth harm? Haven’t they left themselves open? Now is her time!

So she takes it. Suddenly the fairy tale Witch-Queen that we all knew existed but thought was just going to stay away, arises, and both Horde and Alliance are faced with something far more evil than each other, again a threat that means it doesn’t matter who is right or wrong, but who is left…

They can grudgingly again fight together, or they can, by their blind hatred of each other, lay the paving slabs for a resurgent Black Empire, one in which they will have no place…

If you want a RL Comparison (and not making light of the atrocities at the time) Picture the very heights of the Crusades, Christians and Muslims clashing over the Holy Lands, both believe in God/Allah, and Satan/Iblis . They have the same belief, that there is something ineffably evil, in both their versions of the same religion. Suddenly that ‘Rough beast, its time come at last, slouches towards Bethlehem’ In short, the Devil manifests.

Now given that they had a grudging respect for each other, and were both men of faith, do you think Richard the Lionheart, and Saladin, would have went “Yeah, lets ignore the Devil and carry on fighting each other”?
Of course not.
They would unite against the primary evil in both of their religious texts.

And that is what is happening now. Alliance and Horde both ‘believe’ in Aszhara, they both know she would bring ruin to all. Well, now here she is…


(Zarao) #133

If Blizzard aimed at making Azshara that of a big deal, I must say that overall they failed with me in particular.
It may have to do with the distancing I’ve recently suffered regarding the game story (and how detached I’ve grown from it given it’s current awful course), but as of now, I see Azshara as a minor inconvenience we’ve just stumbled upon in this faction conflict.
One that much like Lei-shen, will be dealt with whatever forces are stranded in that “island”.

Not even the full armies of either faction will be needed.


#134

Who need army when u have Jaina with u, she alone have more power then Horde army


#135

No way. Jaina has too many weaknesses.

  • Her mood. One Day she likes you, an other day she tries to kill you.
  • Like every other disney princess one day she will start to sing. Do you want it? DO YOU WANT IT?!
  • A single Thrall Biceps did this: :exploding_head:

#136

World of Musicalcraft, - Horde and Alliance finally at peace. Jaina is singer in 1st patch, 2nd our fav duet Baine and Anduin, with great ending where in 3rd patch Thrall is singing to Nzoth love song. New class: bard. New lvling system - no killing, just singing at pickign flowers. Cant wait.
Victory or sad song! For the GARDEN!!!


(Mahlificia) #137

Blizzard’s problem is that they are chasing the cool moments, jumping from scene to scene without either the patience nor the skill to tie them logically together or build them up.

As such, scenes feel rushed; there is no proper build up of anticipation; there are plot-holes galore and entire narratives and stories stalled and left unexplored as soon as they leave the center stage.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s nothing inherently wrong about chasing non-stop epic; some writers can get away with it, but that’s usually because it works with their particular story and they acknowledge it. Blizzard’s story however takes itself at the same time far too seriously, but not seriously enough.


#138

Oh give me a break. Do you really think the normal people of both Alliance and Horde want to go to war with anyone? Maybe there are some more war driven individuals, but it’s extremely hard to believe the majority want war.

Let me remind you that war doesn’t just mean killing your enemy, it also means that you, your friends and family might die aswell. It’s pretty much two or more sides nuking eachother and it’s completely random who dies and who survives.

Many think this is just a game, but its story always had a sense of realism. Of course leaders do back out when it either gets too much for their people or the risk is too high. The number one priority is survival, and if that means coming to a compromise or agreement with the enemy, it will be done if the leader has any kind of responsibility.

Being constantly driven by revenge always had a price and consequences for those involved and it’s been proven many times. When a leader gets too emotional that is not good for their people, there must always be balance.

I’ve said it before, there are way bigger threats than the stupid faction war. The fact that the Horde leaders rebel against their Warchief makes perfect sense given the attrocities she has and will commit both to the Alliance, Horde and rest of the world.
And of course it also makes perfect sense Alliance will work with them to overthrow Sylvanas. I don’t see what’s so hard to understand.

This is not just a Warcraft thing, it’s also been done in many other stories. The enemy of my enemy is my friend kind of thing. Doesn’t necessarily mean they personally like it or are comfortable with it, but what needs to be done simply needs to be done.

Lastly, about the complimenting thing, I think that many characters were just forced to be confrontational and resentful, but many times it’s not because they were like that, rather they were shaped by circumstances and politics of their race and faction.

Let’s stop pretending the Alliance and Horde are simply brainless mobs going for eachothers throats 24/7, or that they should always be like that.


#139

Regarding your peace between the factions let me tell you another famous quote.

“If I could slaughter millions of you I would not shed a tear”.


(Araphant) #140

Said the guy with 800 pvp kills. :rofl::ok_hand:


#141

guess that’s why he said ‘If’.