Sub - A perfect spec brought to shambles by BfA


The state of subtlety is really rather incredible. By the last two tiers of Legion, with the gloves/shoulders playstyle, Sub was a work of art as a spec. The rotation was engaging and fairly complex, but pretty intuitive. It had some quirks that one had to exploit, such as spamming out the buffs while falling from DfA, but this made the spec feel rewarding to those that spent the time to learn it. The gloves playstyle was so interesting i assumed that it would just be rolled into a talent in BfA. Overall, I felt that it was one of the best spec design experiences I’d ever had playing WoW (started in vanilla), and its utility, survivability, and unique damage funneling ability made it an interesting niche dps spec.

Enter BfA. The design team took all these features, all these things that worked so well, and just threw them out the window. From a business point of view, it’s completely insane. You had a phenomenal design and you just scrapped it. This week’s change to shuriken combo is just the nail on the coffin, turning sub into a boring, spammy spec with very little depth.

I confess I just don’t get it. I can only assume these decisions are due to something superlatively bad, i.e. incompetence, out of touch management, or just outright bad judgment as regards what makes a good game. Heck, perhaps it’s all three. In any case - shame on you guys. You took something great and turned it into something boring and forgettable.

This expansion is a disaster for class design.

(Söze) #2

While I agree that Sub is currently a shambles, it didn’t happen in BfA. IT happend at the beginning of Legion when we had this dumb class fantasy forced upon the spec. Shadowstrike spam is far from “engaging gameplay” imho.

There was nothign wrong with hoe Sub played in WoD or even late MoP


I love the idea of a “near-supernatural” theme with Sub rogues. Then again class fantasy takes you so far until the numbers push you into Sin or Outlaw.

(Jalisco) #4

It was a rather overpowered pvp spec, and the best pve spec to boot.

But, it fits the general bfa development strategy.

Anything fun? NERF to ground.

Its confirmed, sub was elite across the board, now its a bottom feeder across the board.

In all fairness, they could still be decent and better than some other specs, but the other specs, esp. Assassin are so good, why play sub?

(Söze) #5


At the beginning of BfA it was largely OP in PvP due to a trait. OK Evis damage was slightly high too but instead of nerfing the trait and seeing where we were in pvp we just got flattened.

5% damage nerf across the board, 15% more off evis, 10% more off shadowstrike, 35% chance to crit removed with zero compensation…and then the only trait we could use in PvP to try get an evis crit gets “re-designed”…

Honestly im trying my best to persist with Sub PvP but I just did a IoC and got attacked by an ally sub rogue whilst specced assa. I just lolled put my dots up and watched him die while his Eviscerate hit me for 10k on 150k hp…

Sad that they’ve ignored the spec mostly due to assa being too good


I suck, but i still play sub.
Don’t know why. Just resonates with me

(Clawzor) #7

True, sin is so good any goofball can play it and rape around like a walk in the park…
Well that is one reason for me not to play sin, there is hardly any art in it. Other than that, players grow into a class and or spec over time. I’ve been playing sub since tbc and i liked it very very much, it fitted my playstyle and rogue life. Now it is empty hollow and a very sad left over of what is once was. I don’t want to play other classes and specs, I pay for my sub rogue. If Blizz doesn’t come up with rogue sense it would def convince me to cancel my subscription since there is no use investing time and money into people on the wrong places. Besides that it is hard to believe there are devs out there that truly stand behind the subtlety project as is.


Idk what are’you talking about but usually I’m one of the lowest iLvl in the dungeon groups and I end up usually top2 and if same iLvl top1 on damage. Spam Shadowstrike/eviscerate? Huh? It’s more like keep Nightblade, shadow dance, symbol of death (find good time), shadow blade timing on trash, shuriken + evis (still very good damge) and in all this time shadowstep to keep yourself in the back of monster. Talking about pvp we have nearly unlimited cheap shot, it’s pretty op if you manage to find the right timing between it and kidney shots, cold blood already takes 10% of hp on first hit lol. After I run out of stuns for a little, enemies usually on 50% hp if higher or same ilevel, if it’s lover than me then <50% hp and I’m talking about pvp. If it’s not priest or paladin, once you nearly dead vanish, run away, heal, come back and dont let him heal and kill it after that. The moment you are on CD’s on all the skills it’s the time to run away to heal and keep enemy on CC’s to not let him heal himself lol :smiley: I can’t talk about end end game as I’m still at 350iLevel but I doubt it will change. Been with Assa and Outlaw in same groups and my damage was always a bit higher than theirs while my iLevel was always lower.
1vs1 is hard but when we’re talking about 2vN then god help the enemy because they won’t get out of CC for the long time.

(Söze) #9

Cheapshot does no damage mate and there is such a thing as DR. Cold blood is little more than a 14-15k hit with a 1 minute cooldown.

I mean thats super OP when Im getting hit for 40k+ other specs, dying in one stun and seeing my eviscerate average 10.5k…

What you’re describing there is the weakness of Sub rogue. Once you’re out of shadow dance charges, and you’ve failed to put any serious burst into your target, you’re out of ideas and all you can do is try and save your skin by blowing a load of 2 minute cooldowns.

Yes, here I agree, there is not one single spec that Sub rogue has a decent chance against. In a world of 30-50k crits flying about, averaging 10-11k for an eviscerate just wont cut it.


Cheap shot increases your damage for 10%. Actually once you’re out of charges you vanish and heal, and CC enemy to not let him heal himself. Also need to be really careful with combo points to recharge shadow dance efficiently. CS > Shadowstrikes, CS, kidney shot, shadowstrikes, cs, etc.
Maybe you would like to switch from “mark of death” to “Deeper Stratagem” as shadow blade + shadowstrike = 3 points and on crit it’s 6 points = more energy restore. It also works great with Enveloping shadows.

(Söze) #11

The prey on the weak talent increases damage against targets you stunned. Its 5%, not 10%.

You’re proving my point for me here…

You’ve unloaded 2 full shadowdances into a target and I bet you’ve not got them below 50%. You’re only option now against most specs is to blow 6 minutes worth of cooldowns to avoid being nuked down.

Thanks. I know how the deepening shadows passive talent works. I also know you have to spend something like 25 combo points in order to get Shadowdance charge back up. Good luck with not getting nuked down in that time when you’ve already blown cloak, evasion and vanish…


Maybe you would like to switch from “mark of death” to “Deeper Stratagem” as shadow blade + shadowstrike = 3 points and on crit it’s 6 points = more energy restore. It also works great with Enveloping shadows.
And it’s 10% from ALL THE SOURCES.


PotW was nerfed in PvP from 10 to 5% a while ago


So why do I see in the description 10%? :smiley:

(Söze) #16

MfD is situationally the best talent in the row. All out damage, yes you’d choose DS but even that was nerfed from 10% increased damage coming into BfA.

MfD allows you to MfD>Kidney a healer which is way better than DS if you’re planning on playing in more than 1v1 situations…

Prey on the weak is nerfed by 50% in PvP

(Clawzor) #17

The most salty thing i come across with is that Sin rogues have great traits for many abilities such as rupture, garotte, Envenom and even vendetta. Hell, 17k dot here ya go! HF! I don’t see any trait (!) on sub spec giving us a 17k dot on the nme, not even a single trait is engineered to enhance the dmg of our tickle dot nightblade (replicating shadows procs wayy too low to be accounted for). Besides the talents there is much ground to cover on traits as well. It kinda feels like the blizz sub project grp is out of ideas or have a too conservative board that rejects all good ideas. idk man… blizz tell me


Cos its only nerfed in pvp.


My only problem with subtelty is that since the start of BfA not a single dagger has dropped from Emmy quests… and with the low drop rate of weapons I ended up an outlaw :stuck_out_tongue:


Do the first week of pvp (500cp) and you can choose a dagger as the reward.

(Adq) #21

Sublety is just not viable. The dmg and burst is way to low.
I really miss Pre legion sub.

edit: removing rupture / poision from outlaw/sub was a really bad idea