Sub - A perfect spec brought to shambles by BfA

(Verrug) #22

Im glad i found this post, i felt alone when i thought that Legion sub was a work of art. It was perfect, you always had something little to improve on and planning ahead rewarded you a lot. Then everything got thrown away.


It is seriously infuriating that they nerf this pvp spec so that it can fit with pve standards.
With artifacts in legion, they wanted players to identify with specs, not the class overall; yet they prune and tune so that the spec you wanna identify with possibly isn’t viable in the content you want to do.

It feels terrible to pvp as sub atm.
With Sin spec and desireable traits, I can defeat many of my guildies in a duel. I switch to sub w/ the desirable traits and I can barely get theese people I just defeated below 50% hp before they wreck me…

Please just let me have my stealthy shadow ninja spec back, I really don’t identify with sin spec - but Im forced to play it for my team.


I’m so glad it’s not just me. I absolutely loved sub in Legion, I have never done as many world quests ever as I did when I finally went with the switch to sub rogue (from something else). The combat was fun and it flowed really well.

Now I really want to love my sub rogue as much as I did, but no matter what I do it just feels so… gray and drab. I thought maybe it was just because I was behind the rest of the raid and therefore never did particularly good dps, but the fact that world quests and 5-man has equally suffered in the enjoyment department tells me it’s not just the dps.


As a long time sub player (for me the pinnacle was the somewhat OP combo with the capacitor at the end of wod) I whole heartedly support these statements.

I lvled as sub and still enjoy it… but it used to be so much better, energy pooling is gone and the damage is meh - its just spammy button mashing now.

(Dashia) #26

Prey on the Weak increases damage for 6 secs against a disabled opponent. It is debuff on a target. The damage is increased by 10% for 6 secs from all sources against the target and it doesn’t matter if the effect is diminished, te target still gets debuff for 6 secs.

(Söze) #27

The person I was responding to was talking about PvP. I was talking about PvP.

Its 5% increased damage in PvP.

(Dashia) #28

Your right about PvP! It’s reduced to 5%


^^Good to see some enlightenment affirmation, happens too rarely - keep it up D :wink:

I’ve actually been playing around with sub lately in RBGs and doing decent with it too. I am not trying to glorify it however, as it still only delivers about 75% of the damage I do with Sin in a similar match/rating.
Average 1.5m compared to about 2m in Sin. This is at average ilvl 372 with optimal traits for both specs.

And then I see DH and DK pushing between 3-6m damage in those same matches. While I know those two classes generally are more on target due to not being stealthers, it still paints a picture - sub should do damage on par with Sin spec.
The burst is fine - what it needs is a bit better sustain.

Our dot should do more damage! Currently it is only applied for the myriad of effects it provide; the damage in itself is negligible…

(Söze) #30

Yeah, sub can be “fun” if you’re playing with others who can do proper damage but you’re generally there for utility. The duel talent can be useful to help score a kill. But therein is part of the problem. As a Sub rogue, I feel I should be the the one scoring the kill, rather than standing back, using Sap, Stuns and blind while a mage or w/e One-shots something…
For a Spec that was historically all about Burst damage, for me, standing by while others do the burst just isn’t satisfying…

Check out Stungodx on Twitch. He’s one of the highest rated Sub rogues in the world and has played over 2500 3v3 games as Sub this season. Aome of his VoD’s talk about where Sub needs help. One of them in particular talks about how non-existent sustained damage is…

I disagree that burst is fine. Both burst and sustain need a buff in PvP. Pop CD’s as Sub and unload two full shadow dance’s worth of of burst into someone and most often you’ll take out no more than 30% of someones HP. Meanwhile i lose half my HP in two globals to some specs who chuck out 25-45k crits for fun. 11k eviscerates do not constitute burst imho.
A good start would be to return Phantom assassin talent so we can crit during shadowdance. The removal of that was never explained…
Bottom line though, the Spec needs a small re-design.

And its dispellable. We never should have had it but they needed something to make the spec more “Shadowy”. Give us back Rupture…

(Clawzor) #31

Ok, new shizz that made my sub life and the journey a little lighter.

Having the 5th trait gear now makes sub spec more flowing as you can pick most of the good goodies (rng…) to built up a decent spec that actually has a good burst.

As mentioned in another post im wearing x2 nights vengeance, 1x swirling sands, 1x inevitability and 1x 1st dance and some more.
Stat prio mastery versa crit haste (59-11-18-11).
Switched from wep enchant, quick nav to Gale force striking (found it better proccing and works better with shadow techniques).
I feel much more at ease as sub and it shows in the rankings after bg (can actually finish the nme) and on recount in pve…
Still i think replicating shadows should activate nights vengeance when it procs and replicates a nightblade. I like the way i think here…


I just hit 120 and I’m playing mostly 2s with a irl buddy who is a good gamer but new to WoW. He’s playing a Destro lock and I am subtlety.

I still like sub over assas since it is more complicated and I can peel better. But it’s obvious the damage comes from the Destro and I am really struggling putting up pressure.

I am here to check how people feel about rogues and I can see exactly what I thought.

Last time I “quit” my rogue was because my damage was bad and I filled a support class. Later when I returned and rerolled they got a buff. This time around I’m gonna stay rogue and be very patient for that buff for subtlety.


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(Söze) #34

This is the issue with Sub. After they nerfed Evis twice and completely removed Phantom Assassin (meaning we hardly ever crit an Eviscerate) our damage was gimped. While there’s some specs out there throwing out 50-70k crits, I get excited if i see Evis hit for over 20k…

There really is no reason you would play Sub over either of the other two specs when they both have nearly as much CC and much much more damage.

I’m always amused when people (usually non-rogue) tell sub rogue players that they play a “support” spec. Amused because I cant think of another spec in the game which could be called a support spec…

You’re going to have to be mighty patient! It was 7.2.5 last expansion before blizzard decided to do anything for Sub rogue and most of those things they did back then were nerfed to the ground on BfA release.

Imho, we’re looking at 3 significant content patches before Blizzard gets round to addressing Sub rogue issues…if they bother at all.


Thanks for your reply soze

Thing is I kinda have to have patience. I lost the good fun in the game since a while and my mate playing a mage makes me play rogue and it’s always been one of my mains.

Assassination was cool when mutilate got into the game and I’ve had some fun with it for a few patches but I’ve always been a mix of sub and assas but always leaned more towards subtlety for it’s difficulty. I will never forget the talent that my bleeds and poisen wouldn’t break gouge and blind when playing assas. I annoyed the sh** out of people from dotting and running resetting and eventually killing them. But now for me, assassination feels so damn bland. I might still swap for it and maybe when I get some new gear get some traits for it but meh…

I am kinda wondering. If we’d get a slight buff on evis and nightblade do you think we would be capable again? I personally would really really like a buff to DfA so we could get some juicy hits again.

(Söze) #36

A buff to Evis/DfA means nothing if Evis doesn’t crit. We lost Phantom Assassin which was an extra 35% crit during Shadowdance. As it is, I max out at about 28% Crit when things proc. I’ve played hours and hours of BG’s as Sub and an average Eviscerate is about 13k. People have 200k+ healthpools…

Meanwhile I take 20k 20k 20k 20k 20k from hunters. 50-70k from rets…

The only way to fix Sub right now without a redesign is to allow us to crit by giving back Phantom Assassin and stop gimping mastery in PvP


Meh that sounds a bit disappointing. At the same time with our spammable cc it would maybe too much if we’d pump out a 20 20 20 20 20 while stunlocking.

Alright. I’m kinda lost then but I assume you’re right. Let’s just hope blizzard see there’s a problem with sub and it’ll get fixed.

Do you still play sub Sőze?


I really hope they read this topic.

(Retierx) #39

i’ve been experimenting with gloomblade with perforate and inevitability. together they increase backstab damage enormously while not losing all that much burst because find weakness doesn’t do very much and all the burst traits other than 1x first dance kinda suck (with inevitability also adding a little bit of burst). we almost never kill in stuns anyway so the loss of dance burst is negated by a few gloomblades later on in the go.

gloomblade makes a lot of sense in the current metagame as all the popular comps with the exception of assa rmx are filled with tanky high armor specs. destro locks, boomkins, resto druids, ele shamans, dks.

with 1x first dance, 2x inevitability and 1x perforate i was able to get my average gloomblade to ~9k over 44 hits in a skirm. that was with assa traits on chest, gonna queue 3s tomorrow with 1x first dance, 3x inevitability and 2x perforate and gloomblade.

hopefully i’ll do way more damage outside of dance this way. recommend checking it out at least, may be the way to make sub playable.


i didnt like sub in legion. i wasnt a fan of the “stack 5 different buffs onto one massive hit followed by a 4 sec burst window, then hit like a wet noodle untill next burst” playstyle.
i can understand if it appeals to some tho.
Dfa looked cool, but i got really annoyed by it, when it landed me infront of the boss, resulting in that big dick finisher to get parried sometimes + taking dmg/dying to boss frontal cleave. and sometimes it even teleported me under ground, so i fell to my death. rip Dfa, i wont miss you.
in m+ it was extremely OP in the hands of a decent rogue, who had a group who were willing/able to cater to its needs.

i agree that bfa sub is booring tho.

i liked it in wod.

abit off topic: outlaw is awful! wod combat rogue was great!
i like assasin, it havnt changed much since like forever, but i really like the garrote subterfuge dot cleave playstyle, that we have in bfa.

(Retierx) #43

this is what subtlety is all about and has been for ages. even bfa sub still has loads of damage modifiers.

that’s you making mistakes and getting punished for them.

i mean i fell under kara one time so yeah it bugged out sometimes. that’s probably why it went ultimately, it was causing too many problems so they removed it because it was too much effort to keep in the game. kin’garoth forcing you into back group, avatar not working if done too far from the side, maiden causing a wipe if orb spawns on you while mid-air, wrath of azshara pre-fix dumping you in the middle of the pool are some examples off the top of my head.

no i disagree, it was the combination of shoulders and cloak that pushed sub’s burst aoe through the roof.

of course it is. they took away dfa, which was what made the rotation interesting. now you just dance and spam shadowstrike. secret etchnique is a terrible replacement. it doesn’t have a cool animation, it’s not that powerful and the damage it does do is split so you don’t get to see a huge number on your screen. ES is spammy, DS has no glorious moment where you go huge.

loss of shoulders was also a huge blow to how enjoyable the spec is.