Sylvanas' Treachery Foreshadowed Since Vanilla

While doing some quests in Vanilla(Horde Side) I’ve come across a couple of interesting tidbits of lore.

/quest=1391/nothing-but-the-truth

In this particular quest we feed an alliance prisoner some brew yet again. Typical, but in this case we do it to make sure he does not reveal information regarding the Forsaken’s motivations.

Infiltrator Marksen says, “I believe the forsaken are misleading the allies of the horde … wait … i feel so … dizzy …”
Infiltrator Marksen writhes in pain
Infiltrator Marksen says, “AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!”

/quest=544/prison-break-in

Another interesting quest I came across where you are hired to assassinate some Forsaken deserters held by Dalaran officials. The quest text implies that the Forsaken do not take kindly to anyone who ‘betrays’ them. So much for their FREE WILL.

But the more interesting lore tidbit pertaining to this quest comes from the journal you loot off Belamoore, an NPC that isn’t really related to the quest objectives but guards one of the prisoners.

/item=3711/belamoores-research-journal#dropped-by

The Forsaken we are hired to kill are actually the good guys who discovered Sylvanas is up to something very nefarious as the items we are recovering have something to do with the Old Gods. This does not necessarily mean she’s allied with them but it is a clear indication that she’s looking for something and she does not want anyone to know about it.

Has anyone else come across any similar quests? I bet there are a couple more here and there.

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Here’s your foreshadowing, particularly the final 20 seconds:

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Those are some of the quests that show that the Forsaken mindset has always been roughly the same, and that Cataclysm hardly did any additional thing to “promote” them in order to obtain the “Scourge” badge people gave them then.

You can be sure there are many more quests like those. You may have stumbled on the lobotomised Scarlet chick going about UC.

Ps: Regarding the one with the Forsaken deserters, I don’t think that’s representative of them going against “Free will”. Free will isn’t a free pass to validate desertion or treason.
Most of the other races would’ve reacted similarly.

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How nice that more people are catching on to this.

But it wont really change much, since the Sylvanas fanboys will never listento reason. They are either to edgy and think joining WoWs counterpart of H*tler is cool, or they are just not willing to accept any flaws in their Waifu Sylvanas…

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It’s so funny to see those Sylvanas stans see to rant that Sylvanas was ruined in BfA, even if she wal always that like. Know your lore is my advice :wink:

I mean, you just have to look at her WC3 campaign…

She starts out with only her banshees loyal to her and beginns to mind controle the troops of the Dreadlords, Bandits and Trolls, so that she can send them to their death for her.
Later she Forces Varimatras to join her or be killed and makes an Alliance with a Human General (forgot the name) because they share a common goal. (Sound familiar? Thats exactly the same reasoning she joined the Hord with).

Once she reached her goal of taking over the City, she kills her Allies…

I have no idea how anyone could think Sylvanas did NOT plan to betray the Horde from the Start. Manipulating and betrayal are the two things she does best…

Same with Wrathgate. maybe Sylvanas wasnt the one who ordered it, but does anyone really belive that something like this can happen in Undercity without the Banshee Queen knowing about it? I guarantee you, you cant even cough in UC without her hearing it…

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Ask the Sylvanas stans. There have to be really a lack if lire if they complain that she was made evil in BfA, while she was always showed as evil in warcraft.

It was always confirmed that she knew about it and let it just happen.

Because that’s a fairly recent twist that writers have given her character recently in order to create a villain for this expansion.
Being in an alliance of convenience doesn’t automatically translate into some future betrayal. See for example Blood elves and Lorthemar.

Regarding the rest of the post, I do wonder what’s the purpose of it all. Whats the goal here?
Sylvanas has always had an edge to her. She was cruel, self-serving and evil in certain ways.
The point is that those were but traits of a more complete list of pros and cons that made her character (and race), attractive for certain players.
Regardless if they “greyness” tilted more towards the black tones, the point was that they had their light too.

And that has been destroyed for her character in BfA.

I don’t understand the end goal here to be frank, it almost seems as if some of you want to signal that those that enjoyed said story should feel bad and go on their knees proclaiming they are playing villains all along.

This is frankly disgusting:

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Well, let’s look at it this way.

Arthas is probably the most iconic WoW character and as a tragic character he is almost universally liked… however nobody denies that he ended up being a villain who committed genocide among other things.

Likewise there is nothing wrong with liking Sylvanas as a fictional character either. Personally I’ve hated her ever since the Scourge campaign of WC3 even before she was turned undead but that’s neither here nor there.

Issue is, however, unlike in Arthas’ case wherein everyone seems to universally agree that he turned evil Sylvanas’ fans seem to think she’s somehow… not evil and blindly trust Blizzard’s ‘wait and see’ promise. But with all the blood on her hands nobody in their right mind could possibly say she’s anything but evil at this point.

They tried whitewashing Illidan after he willingly served the Legion and slaughtered villages of night elves but hey, it was all for the greater good. I’m guessing they might try something similar with Sylvanas but it’ll just come off as shallow, contrived, and completely illogical.

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Can’t speak for any player but myself, but the reasons as to why I see nothing wrong with Sylvanas character, and why I think BfA was but a blatant mean to ruin her arch, is because she is representative of a set of values that make up an entire playable race.
One that players like a few close people I know, liked and enjoyed.

Even if they are villains to some, the Forsaken were traditionally given a reasoning that gave them some valid and even relatable traits that differentiates them from the blatant bad guys of this story. Yes, Sylvanas had those too.

That made up an interesting story that had a race treading pretty close to the bad guy line, but still had the narrative means to stay out of the raid-boss list.

That made up an interesting narrative. Evil guys shouldn’t be automatically smitten by karma.
Having a story that delves into how they fare as playable protagonists, even giving them an edge that could make them sympathetic, made them interesting as a whole.

With Sylvanas they removed these traits.

In short, I just fail to see the issue or reason to signal “They are bad guys!”. As I doubt anyone argued otherwise (to clarify, that doesn’t mean someone can’t argue against punctual reasonings they had throughout the years they were available as a playable race).
It’s something to take into account.

And seeing answers as the ones seen here, with people downright insulting those with a particular taste in this story, is downright sickening.

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I dont understand where you get these informations from…

Sylvanas was never shows as anything but self serving since her first apperance in WC3.
Back then She lived by manipulation and betraying.

Hell, this was what you heard when you made an undead Character:

"Convinced that the primitive races of the Horde can help them achieve victory over their enemies, the Forsaken have entered an alliance of convenience with the savage orcs and the proud tauren. Harboring no true loyalty for their new allies, they will go to any lengths to ensure their dark plans come to fruition.

As one of the Forsaken, you must eliminate any who pose a threat to the new order – be they human, undead, or otherwise."

This was literally the first summary of the Forsaken we got…

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Maybe that particular jab was a bit out of place but what I was trying to say is that despite being all about ‘free will’ Sylvanas has time and time again been rather keen on punishing any of her ‘own people’ who don’t want to be part of her ‘Forsaken’.

The most blatant example of this is the meeting between the FK and their family members all of whom she has murdered.

Of course in case of this quest she had another reason to assassinate the deserters. They stole something precious. But despite the blood gems being of some importance the quest giver tells you about them being traitors first before anything else. For whatever reason.

If the FK were truly about free will why couldn’t the FK join the Alliance even if it meant being locked up in a cage like an animal? Perhaps they’d prefer that fate over being part of… whatever Sylvanas is doing? Because let’s be honest, that’d be the better choice from a moral pov and has always been… ever since vanilla. Now more than ever.

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Could start breaking down several quests, dialogues, quotes, and all sorts of information. But frankly, and given the tone of the post you wrote and the one you wrote now (that does nothing to further your own argument, as I’ve already said that I’m rather fine and fail to see the issue with races portrayed as having alliances of convenience), to be honest I cba.

In short, no, the Forsaken And Sylvanas have a story that goes well beyond the Scourge wannabes tag you are giving them.
Even going by the most recent texts and quotes, Sylvanas is shown as caring to some extent about the Forsaken.

This will probably fall on deaf ears, but anyway. You can continue tagging those that argue otherwise as H*tler apologetics or whatever you want.

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Yeah, because they are her meatshield against the hell she belongs to.

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Never claimed that people who follow Sylvanas were anything like that.
Just saying that Sylvanas is basically a fantasy version of a brutal Dictator who wants to erase all she does not deem worthy to exist.

In regards to her being caring…

We only have two choices. Either she has severe mental impediments or she does not care.

Because if she truly did care for her people why go ahead and let Putress ravage everyone with the plague at the Wrathgate?

Why burn Teldrassil?

Or do you think she goes pikachuface every time Alliance(or both, alliance and the rest of the horde) team up and beat the crap out of the Forsaken for vengeance?

And if we go with that theory that she wanted Tyrande to be consumed by vengeance this whole time who is going to be the first nation that’s going to feel Tyrande’s(and Greymane’s) wrath? Her own people.

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We only have one choice. She does not care because she wants everyone dead.

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Won’t attempt excusing that sort of villain batting, as the whole scene was conceived in a way as to paint Sylvanas stupidly evil.
That’s the beginning of her devolving into her current twisted self.

I was just arguing against the premise that had people going “Yeah, she was like this all along”.
No, she was not. She had bits of it, that’s for sure, but still she did have some lights to her that compensated (even if barely), some of her shades.

Adding to the above, “…and if you argue otherwise you enjoy playing for H*tler and you are but a depraved guy infatuated with a fictional character”, discredits to me whatever reason or valid was the poster might have had.

(Not talking about you by the way, must say that I find your posts rather appropriate and worth debating with).

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Not really a sign of Blizzard planning it long-term… But I’ll throw in Varimatgras’ quotes from Argus into the ring nonetheless.

Alliance:

So, your Alliance still endures. Longer than I expected, though she has already planted the seeds of its downfall. She is patient, that one.

When your thrones run red with betrayal… when your holy places burn and the shattered mask hangs above your hearth… only then you will know. And it will be too late.

It matters not. You are blind to the true darkness closing in around you.

Horde:

So, she found me at last. Sent her underlings to finish the job.

Tell me, when she seized your throne of hides and bones, was your allegiance forced? No… I’d wager you surrendered it willingly… or were convinced you did.

It matters not. You are blind to the darkness in your midst.

In light of the other foreshadowing it doesn’t seem like prophecy at all, but really just knowledge of Sylanas’ long held ambitions and the outlines of some of her plans.

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I like this. The Forsaken were not ideal allies to the Horde. I doubt the Orcs, Tauren and Troll viewed the Forsaken as anything but an ally of convenience, as well.

Alone, the Forsaken are surrounded by the Scourge and human and dwarven kingdoms. And without the Forsaken, the Horde doesn’t really have a stronghold within the Eastern Kingdoms. Their alliance makes sense, even if their cultural values couldn’t be more different.

The problem with the narrative of World of Warcraft these days is that they place too much focus on the individual characters rather than the different factions. Before one considers world domination, one might want to secure one’s own territory, first. The Forsaken’s goal should’ve been something feasible, like securing Lordearon. If they were to betray anyone, it shouldn’t have been the Horde, but rather the Argent Dawn.

Sylvanas’ actions as Warchief, sending the Orcs, Tauren and Trolls into battle as cannon fodder and then raising them as undead, it actually makes sense. Why the Orcs, Tauren and Troll would allow this makes no sense whatsoever. You do not elect the leader of the “ally of convenience” as the head of your coalition. Blizzard’s writers makes it work because they’re the gods of this universe, but the only way for it to make sense is to say that everyone within the Horde is a complete and utter idiot. Which doesn’t really make for a strong narrative, in my opinion. More importantly, it doesn’t make for strong world building.

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