It’s more like her faction betrayed her than she betraying her faction, in any way you see it.
Did Sylvanas ever express her will to enslave / conquer the world, or lead the Horde? Did she express her will to annihilate other races because she hated them? What were her goals so far? We don’t even know now…
Frankly, while she was the Horde leader, I did not see any bad attitude from her towards the other Horde leaders. She explained her plans and sometimes listened to advice. She included others to the execution of her plans too. She sort of trusted Saurfang many times and he betrayed her and led her to really bad calls.
This is as retarded as saying to a general “YOU ORDER YOUR SOLDIERS TO FIGHT AND SOME DIED! YOU MONSTER”. This has been discussed numerous times, a general tries to achieve victory with the minimal cost. If you can sacrifice 100 soldiers and kill 1000 it’s probably a good trade. It’s unfair for those 100 soldiers, but at that time the soldiers are not individuals but the shield of a nation.
which event are you referring to? For example when the Horde fleet was chased and Azshara destroyed both Alliance and Horde ships, it was a win for the Horde since more Alliance ships were destroyed. Moreover it was hardly predictable
Sylvanas references her bargain with Azshara. Nathanos was there with the blade. She sunk a fleet with Thalyssra and Lor’themar on it. That’s murder of Horde soldiers, and attempted murder of Horde leaders.
Ps. This particular topic is the very tip of the iceberg regarding Sylvanas.
It was not a win, it was a gamble. The Horde leadership and forces found there were also severelz damaged. It just so happened that they did not get the shorter end of that stick, merely because they had such a miserable little fleet left that there was no way they would lose more ships than the Alliance.
What does this bargain include? Do you know? Can you share?
If her actions caused the deaths of 100 (let’s say) Horde soldiers and 500 Alliance and also destroyed both fleets, is that a bad tactic? Given the fact ofc that Alliance had a much larger fleet.
Remember her goal is to preserve the faction (supposedly ) not the faction leaders, who of course wouldn’t die even if Sargeras showed up in their face again…
It’s stupid to go that way. Every prediction and strategy is a gamble. So far Sylvanas had a lot of EXCELLENT gambles which Blizzard magically made bad. Of course you consider her stupid and failed because amazing gables magically (blizzardly) turned bad, but now that it went well, she is still stupid?
No, It is stupid to think it was a victory for the Horde when they also lost their remaining fleet and were stranded just like the Alliance, let alone the fact that their leadership was almost annihilated in the ensuing naga ambush too.
Do make a list of those EXCELLENT gambles Sylvanas had.
Sure. I’m not sure if that is what Syvlanas did, though? It’s hard to take strategy seriously in WoW due to the frequent use of deus ex portals, but if you possess a strong biological weapon, is it wise to use it on your own fortification? Sure, she repelled the attackers, but she also made the entirety of the undercity unhabitable.
Her grand strategy at the battle of undercity was basically “if I can’t have it then no one can have it!” and they weakened their own position and forced the Forsaken to take to the streets in Orgrimmar.
That is not what Sylvanas did. Following that example, the 100 men were her actual army, not an expendable fraction of it. Trading your entire army for the enemy army is not a smart strategy.
Here we are nicely ignoring she used the weapon on her own troops, which were not stragglers (contrary to popular fanboyish theory flying around), without even attempting to recall them.
Oh, I’m not ignoring that. I don’t think Sylvanas’ tactic at the battle of undercity was particularly clever in any shape or form. You don’t bomb your own capital. I don’t think any general would advise such a thing.
Edit: Then again, burning an enemy city to the ground rather than occupying it, murdering V.I.P.'s instead of capturing them and making enemies out of your own generals is not particularly clever either, but I’ve given up on WoW being able to tell a narrative with any military sense.
Of course no one would advise it. If you bomb your own capital, it means you have already given up on victory and just want to bring everyone down with you. That is how it works in the real world, usually. Sylvanas had the advantage of being able to turn into a turbo plane, but still, nuking your own capital is definitely proof that you miserably failed in defending said capital.
Wounded Soldier says: It was foolish of me to get caught away from the line. Thank you for the second chance.
People came to this conclusion because of this line, which indeed points at them being stragglers.
Anyway, this topic has been debated to death, and it boils down to whether the deaths of said soldiers was an eventuality contigent or not to some military necessity. Some consider it was, and others that it was not.
A mute point as of now, given that whatever valid reasoning she might have had, has already been muddied to the ground with the beating of the villain batting of Sylvanas.
The only possible defense I can conjure up for this course of action is this: she would have killed Anduin, Genn, Jaina and Alleria. Which makes me want to echo what I said previously:
The soldiers and the location has to take a back seat in order for the “main characters” to shine. It makes perfect sense from the storytelling perspective of individuals fighting. This type of narrative suits super hero movies or anime series, not an MMORPG where the game world should be in focus.
Why are the people ignoring the other ten lines from differently positioned NPCs, as well as the fact that there was a massive Horde charge all the way to Brill before the blight began flying? Why are we ignoring there was no recall?
I mean, I don’t even see why are we debating this at the moment when Sylvanas openly speaks of killing as many people as possible?
No because they never gave us one. Still the video (if you can take it for reference) shows an analogy of the numbers of the horde and alliance ships.
So if she just asked them to fight the alliance, horde being let’s say 10 ships and alliance 25 and 90% of the horde died and 90% of the alliance died. This would have been a good call ? How is that different ?
Her diversion war would have started with Malfurion dead (no nelf cities burnt), which was her goal and the plan. Of course, Saurfang managed to mess it all up
The fight in Lordaeron would have ended with at least severe alliance casualties - every gamble would have alliance faction leaders dieing but in every corner something super someone shows up and saves teh day wow!
It is if in the end your faction odds are better than before, why is it not a smart strategy?
Not to mention that after every corner, Sylvanas brought the alliance and the horde closer together and in the end they all become good and lovely friends all sins forgiven? How is that for a plan?
Are you ignoring the fact Sylvanas is obviously bargaining with something sinister, with the lives of both factions?
It shows a cinematic. According to that cinematic, I can argue the Alliance lost 15 Stormwindian ships. All I am saying is, we don’t really know what’s going on. The Alliance lost more, but we do not know the ratio.
Like, you can say 5 for 1, I can say 2 for 1, someone can say 20 for 5, no one has a clue.
Except that that strategy would have failed. If losing their city did not shatter their hopes, then losing Malfurion would not. And we know from the Third War that losing a leader, albeit beloved, is not enough to crush the night elves, because they kept fighting even though their demigod was butchered before their very eyes.
The Alliance in Lordaeron was severely handicapped because they conveniently did not have any counter for the blight.
It is if in the end your faction odds are better than before, why is it not a smart strategy?
Because the faction odds were not better than before. Also because sacrificing your remaining fleet and most important allies on a gamble is foolish.
) not the faction leaders, who of course wouldn’t die even if Sargeras showed up in their face again…
