They are able to open wowpedia from Blizzard headquarters. They don’t have to know the number, if they can look it up and know it is relevant.
I agree with you there, sorry, seems I misread that part of your post.
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It wouldn’t be the first time they don’t bother checking. But, if the narrative they want to tell includes them emphasising the fact that Sylvanas has run out of bail out cards, they probably will.
Wasn’t really arguing much about their role as it, as i consider said plot devices quite cheap (every other leader is getting along without those quite well).
As i said, i argued more about building on narratives that made their other roles (the ones that tie them to the survival of the playable race), more extended. As in, “Now the minor Valkyr can keep the Forsaken race growing or alive”.
For a race that can’t reproduce, that sort of narrative elements are needed if you wan’t to give their faction a future. Can’t have the same people/characters driving the story forward ad intinitum.
I mean, you can, but it will grow increasingly stagnant.
But glad we agree on the part regarding the prime Valkyr at least.
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Why would a race of undead have to have a future beyond the ones afflicted now? The player can survive, even in a race with shrinking numbers. Like… about all other races are, really. I mean, the constant war should be killing humans of at greatly above replacement rate, especially considering that they send their women to die in the fields…
So no, I don’t think such elements are needed at all. Just have the race fight for survival, as any other race does. The game isn’t supposed to plan for generations to come.
If you change up the characters on top once in a while… I think you can, for quite a while. Longer than the game will last.
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Because with living races you can excuse their survival after constant warring with time gaps, generational leaps, and having its members reproducing.
You can have the race organically survive or endure.
If you have a race, like the Forsaken, that can’t reproduce and is constantly battered by conflict (as almost every other race in wow is), at one point people will wonder how is it they are still a race.
Anduin grew in WoW. His generation could be filling the ranks of Stormwind right now as soldiers or generals.
If the Forsaken population is to remain stagnant, the second you kill a character, there is zero hope for replacement.
Let alone having stories that represent massive losses (Old Gods, Legion, etc).
The second a race that can’t grow, takes one of those massive hits, they are done.
Humans can replenish their ranks, as almost every other race can. Forsaken need a mean to create new characters and explain how is it that their military is still functional after warring non-stop.
Retcons and flip-flopping is bad for a character. Look at how they handled the ones Jaina had and how people reacted.
Look at Sylvanas. Or at Garrosh.
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Edit:
To make it short: The Forsaken are pushing their numbers right now. Any population gains through the usual procreation will be battle-ready in about 20 years. The game won’t last that long, so if the Forsaken stop raising new dead after this addon, the difference wouldn’t have to be felt in the lifetime of the game. And no-name characters can always become named and interesting, they don’t have to be newly risen for that to happen.
…but there was never time for any generational leap in WoW, and it doesn’t look like there ever will be. The game is supposed to encompass about 10 years, up until now.
I would ask that question about literally every race. That’s why populatrion discussions are such a joke.
And would already be dying off in a worldwide war, while the Forsaken are still raising new battle-ready soldiers right now. And you know, soldiers that die in the field don’t get to have many kids, making every following generation smaller than the preceding one.
…instead of waiting 10+years for replacement? I don’t think there is as much of a practical difference as you claim. Did you know the undead from traveler-novels for example? Did you know the guys who became the desolate council? I certainly didn’t. Any nameless forsaken who has existed for years can become an interesting character in the future. You don’t need “newborn” Forsaken for that.
…where was I implying that they should do “retcons” or “flip-flops”?
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I know.
But kids born in wow (like Anduin), can grow into adulthood and replace fallen soldiers for all the living races. Troop replacement doesn’t encompass the whole lifespan of individuals.
Living races have different generations. Youth has different ages.
With Forsaken we don’t have that. You are either capable of contributing to the faction, or you are dead. There are no Forsaken children.
And in the next “World ending threat”, that has Blizzard going like “…and the Azeroth armies were severely beaten and destroyed by X”, how would Forsaken fix it?
Give the rest a few years, and the children of those fallen soldiers can grow from 15 to 18 years old and become soldiers, while their mothers give birth to new children that can replace them in the future.
The second the Forsaken military takes a heavy hit, its over.
And yes, while i agree that punctual plots can be driven by dragging out of the obscurity certain characters from the Forsaken faction, military losses (as in army defeats), aren’t as easily fixed.
Lets assume that what is happening with Stormwind happened to the Forsaken. That they are forced to conscript farmers.
5 years from now (not that of a leap in wow), children can come of age, and be trained to be soldiers.
But the Forsaken would remain stagnant in their numbers.
Changing up the characters, tends to have them flip-flopping. Not saying that its always like that.
But its the general “rule” for WoWs top tier narrative…
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…nah, this is getting much too stupid for me. And I mean stupid. You can figure that one out yourself.
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You know, there are certain times when the tone of these random responses really surprises me.
Really wonder about claims that come afterwards regarding how i come across…
You’re trying to make it sound as if demographic change in WoW makes sense, to defend your point. At some point, it gets too stupid to engage with this, especially knowing how the only way to end the discussion is to end it by yourself, since you will stick to your points till the opponent dies of old age.
So… get used to people losing interest and not trying to be poilite about it.
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No. I’m saying that its easy to fix demographic loss when a narrative enables even mild troop replacement (the next generation of soldiers, etc.), something that turns impossible if a race is portrayed as unable to replace every soldiers that dies.
Not arguing for realistic time gaps, nor lifespans.
And regarding this:
I’ve conceded several points already. Including the one about narrative and relevant characters that may drive it forward for the Forsaken race.
But, your call.
And i can certainly get used to people having impolite answers. I’ll still get amused if said people come up to me after with the “Your are rude” flag.
We can agree to disagree you know?
That’s even funnier.
That it is.
I think that’s a given. But sometimes you just want to point out why you’ve stopped trying to reach an agreement. I leave it at “agree to disagree”, if I think my opponent has a well-reasoned position that conflicts with mine, not if I give up because I only think that I’m not getting through there, ever.
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Why? Have the next generation stepping in for their fathers isn’t a valid way of replacing major losses due to some “apocalyptic” plot created to showcase how heavy the soldier casualties were?
Wouldn’t said impossibility represent a tough handicap for the narrative of the Forsaken race?
Its pretty childish to try and claim that you want to express yourself in that way because you want to highlight that “Yeah, i’m leaving because you are arguing stupid”. Kind of denotes attention seeking.
Even if i conceptually disagree with the one i’m arguing with, the polite way of exiting a discussion is still “Agreeing to disagreeing”. Yes, even if i consider whatever the other guy is saying as utter gibberish.
Which, truth be told, i don’t consider any of the things i said to be such.
But as we agreed, its your call how you want to come across when ending a discussion.
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Try leaving others the last word, ever, before you complain about attention-seeking behaviour. I don’t think you’re in a position to throw stones there. Let’s try this now, I’ll make it easy: This is my last post on this specific discussion with you. Can you leave it standing?
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Sorry but i tend to keep the ball going when the one i’ve been discussing with tries an exit akin to slamming the door at my face with a randomly rude remark out of the blue.
Specially if upon further questioning, said person admits they just wanted to showcase they were leaving on those terms because they considered like highlighting the fact that they thought their opposite stance as stupid.
And most importantly, if said person previously chastises me for apparently having said sort of behaviour. You know, even if there are times when i too think that way, i understand that leaving in those terms is a rather rude way of going.
This isn’t a competition about having the last word or “winning” the argument. Although that sort of rhetoric smacks of you trying to do so.
Kind of surprising i must say again, as i was under the impression this sidetracking started rather amicably.
Helya is the mother of Valkyr, the first of her kind, she has the power to create more Valkyr.
The lantern was merely the means, a peace of Helya’s power to allow Sylvanas subdue Eyir, an effort which was interrupted by Greymane.
Regardless, from the quest line in Stormheim, it is clear that Sylvanas made a bargain of some kind, even Helya says it herself to remember it, and Sylvanas is yet to uphold her end.
Also, Odyn sent the forces, that included Horde/Alliance, not Sylvanas btw, why do you think Odyn tests you in the raid and then sends you down to face Helya. ![:stuck_out_tongue:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/stuck_out_tongue.png?v=6" ":stuck_out_tongue:")
If she can make Val’kyr then why don’t we see her with any Val’kyr-type creatures during our questing experience and the raid?
Regardless I should say why would she want to make more Val’kyr for someone other than herself?
Sylvanas is the Horde leader and she would ultimately have the final say in the matter, it is a miracle that Odin doesn’t care that you assisted someone who tried to enslave basically his second in command. Especially given his character.
Nor would Heyla seem to fond with her subjects going in to kill her.
Lastly if Helya can make Val’kyr then I am 99% sure that they would work in the same way as the LK Val’kyr do. Once she died (for a time, and/or the lantern was destroyed) then any buffs the Val’kyr got would have been removed. Furthermore I highly doubt Helya would willingly give them Val’kyr power after what Sylvanas let happen.
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The miracle of Blizzard’s “Continuity”.
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Continuity exists to enhance the story. Not to tie the hands of the creator.
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I have a cold. Kicking me while I’m down, eh?!
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The Royal Apothecary Society could help you with a syrup or two… ![:sunglasses:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/sunglasses.png?v=6" ":sunglasses:")
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