Yeah I do, this is pretty much always the case when something’s either added in or taken away. No matter the class or no matter what part of the game it’s about.
There will always be those that complains about stuff that others get.
For me, personally, if they(devs) go with a popular request made by players, I would not mind it. Despite it not being about the class I play.
You shouldn’t be against trying to make the game better for everyone just because some might not like that they don’t get something as well.
Imagine the game and how it’s systems would be designed if this is what we based everything on…
Besides, they(other class forums), did not lose an entire spec in favor of a completely different playstyle.
Why? Because those of us who mained ranged survival all the time got fuc-king pissed when they removed the most fluid range spec in the game and gave us something we didnt ask for?
Hunters are supposed to be freaking ranged, its always been like that. I would be sooo happy if old survival would return. Theres so many melee classes, why do hunters have to be one aswell?
No they have not always been ranged. I have covered this many times.
Once upon a time Survival was a melee spec and later changed into a more ranged oriented spec in patch 1.7 when survival got an overhaul.
They were hybrid back then. They still had a bow and a quiver. They still shot at a range and often finished then up close. It was nothing like it is today.
No they where ranged with melee components beacause of the dead zone as where all hunter specs where and when the dead zone was removed in a tbc or wrath release patch they where designed as imgo the perfect ranges / melee hybrid you can in wrath build a mongoose build (raptor strike i think it was called back then) and do tons of melee burst in a few hits or you could fo the explosive shot proc route and use melee as a suppliment more for sustain.
Regardless the new survival spec is amazing in my opinion all i would like is a ranged option just to suppliment your melee when you are at range, i love the ranged aspect at the moment but i think id be a whole lot happier id it simply had a bow animation and we where not locked into using a CD for a ranged option, give us ammo amount like 8 shots + 2 utility so you could slow, keep someone in combat maybe fire an expolsive arrow or an expose weakness arrow so when you get back into melee in X time frame you can burst and they act as “primers” maybe an flare arrow instead of our usual flare so it moves with the target.
Ammo count would replenish over time, so so we havs a realiable ranged option while still having a melee focus.
Also for pve we are fine righf now we just have this stigma which is unfounded
Not really. Much we had in the past was not to my liking.
Ofc people want different things. Just how we are.
The reason so many players want for example the old SV spec back, is not because the version we have now is worse. It’s because now, we have NO old SV spec at all. They removed it.
Prior to patch 1.7 Survival was a melee spec with bonus to traps. 31pt was Lacerate.
Survival was called outdormanship, but was changed right after release.
You mean the exact version of SV we had during MoP or do you mean the general playstyle of SV as a whole, as it was designed prior to Legion?(when it became melee)
Ofc, opinions vary on this as well.
Personally I did not play WoW a lot during MoP. A big part of this was because of the changes made to the talent-system. Where they stepped away from talents being focused on each perspective specialization that we had, and gave us the modern design with fewer choices.
Now, the modern design in itself with fewer choices, I’m not necessarily against. It was more so, the specific talent choices we got in MoP. WoD talents were slightly better IMO, but not by much.
I found them overall to be fairly bland, and non-focused on SV and it’s playstyle/fantasy.
Having said this, as far as re-creating any version of the old SV spec, and making it fit into modern WoW and it’s systems + design philosophies. While I preferred Cataclysm as far as Survival goes, over MoP or WoD. We can’t just simply bring back either version of them.
Things would have to be altered to fit todays WoW.
What I did, was to simply look at each expansion where we had any playable version of the old ranged SV spec and then, think of which elements that I liked the most. And then try to bring them together for the new design.
But to also bring in certain elements from other hunter specs. Elements that could either be helpful for gameplay or elements that somehow enhanced the design.
This is ofc subjective. And opinions always vary.
Anyways, the result will ofc look different from any past version of the spec that we had as they looked A LOT different from how specs are today in general.
I hope that people can find that the core of it is still there. Note: I know that the link here makes it look like a giant wall of text. It’s not. Apparently, links to other posts makes those look horrible…
You are idd right on this. Or I should say that you are, sort of…
I should say that I had to look this up as I could not remember the specifics of it. Also, I could not find any official records of the old “Outdoorsman”-spec, which was what SV was called before 1.7.
Nor could I find anything similar to a talent calculator that actually showed the exact layout of the talents.
I did find this though(correct me if anything here wasn’t actually there prior to patch 1.7). And if anyone has a link to a website where you can find the old Outdoorsman-talents, I would very much like to see it again. Thanks!
Here it is(all talents have max points in them):
Outdoorsman (Old Survival spec)
Entrapment
Rank 5/5
Gives your Immolation Trap, Frost Trap, and Explosive Trap a 25% chance to entrap the target, preventing them from moving for 5 sec.
Savage Strikes
Rank 5/5
Increases your critical strike chance with melee weapons by 5%.
Precision
Rank 5/5
Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons by 5%.
Improved Raptor Strike
Rank 5/5
Reduces the cooldown of your Raptor Strike by 1 sec.
Improved Wing Clip
Rank 5/5
Gives your Wing Clip ability a 20% chance to immobilize the target for 5 sec.
Lightning Reflexes
Rank 3/3
Increases your Dodge chance by 3%.
Melee Specialization
Rank 5/5
Increases the damage you deal with melee weapons by 5%.
Improved Freezing Trap
Rank 3/3
Increases the duration of your Freezing Trap by 6 sec.
Improved Explosive Trap
Rank 2/2
Increases the initial damage done by your Explosive Trap by 60%.
Improved Frost Trap
Rank 2/2
Increases the duration of your Frost Trap’s movement slowing effect by 3 sec.
Improved Immolation Trap
Rank 5/5
Increases the damage done by your Immolation Trap by 15%.
Deflection
Rank 5/5
Increases your Parry chance by 5%.
Improved Mongoose Bite
Rank 5/5
Increases the damage done by your Mongoose Bite ability by 20%.
Deterrence
Rank 1/1
Instant 5 min cooldown
When activated, increases your Dodge and Parry chance by 25% for 10 sec.
Counterattack
Rank 1/1
45 Mana
Instant cast 5 sec cooldown
5 yd range
A strike that becomes active after parrying an opponent’s attack. This attack deals 40 damage and immobilizes the target for 5 sec. Counterattack cannot be blocked, dodged, or parried.
Lacerate
Rank 1/1
65 Mana
Instant cast
5 yd range
Requires Melee Weapon
Wounds the target causing them to bleed for 77 damage over 21 sec.
Now, if you look only at these talents, then I can very much see why people claim that the old SV(Outdoorsman) spec was a melee spec.
But the thing is, you still had many ranged abilities/attacks baseline. Neither of which were removed if you specced into the above talents. What does this mean?
Spec’ing into the old SV talents allowed you to be more powerful when you had to fight an enemy(player or npc) that was in melee range of you.
As, in melee range, you could not use your ranged weapon against them.
Conclusion: the old spec did make your melee capabilities better, as well as your traps and your overall survivability. But did picking these talents make you an actual melee hunter? I would say no.
Back then, we had no such thing as being only a ranged hunter or being only a melee hunter.
Outdorsmanship was changed at release to Survival if my memory serves me correct.
The old talent tree can be found at:
classicwowtalents.appspot.[com]/index.html?talent=1124125_3
In my link classicwowtalents.appspot.[com]/index.html?talent=1124125_3 left side corner under patches, you will find a link to the patch 1.1.2
They are exactly what you posted
I’m not saying old surv was a good spec, but you could dish out some fancy numbers with the right gear.
Here is a link from a hunter playing as the Surv/BM
I have yet to find footage of the old Surv spec
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tE2dbmyYjs]
The deadzone only applied to ranged, and thats where Old survival stepped in, I have linked a gamplay, but I’m happy to do it again.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tE2dbmyYjs]
IMO, this might as well be a private server as well.
Or I should say, nothing that was unique to the old Outdoorsman is used at least. He does not appear to be using Lacerate either.
What is evident though is that Survival back then was not designed to make you a pure melee hunter.
Despite having all those talents that were beneficial to your melee capabilities.
You were as much of a hybrid back then as you are now with MSV. The main difference being that MSV now is made up from abilities(some at least) and effects taken from other specs combined with some niche stuff.
Does this mean that the current MSV is objectively bad? No.
Subjectively? Depends on who you ask ofc. We like things different.
Note:
Man you edited that post quite fast, not an easy task to answer some stuff
If you read the description in the video he states that this was taken during the last patch before BC.
I only mention Lacerate to prove a point that there was a time before Wyvern Sting.
Yes, I did. I was puting kids to bed and writing on my mobile at the same time and only saw my mistakes in my own post when I sat down on my computer
This is true, and Lacerate was such a bad talent as it didnt scale at all so those who played Surv added in points from BM as it would benefit more with current playstyle than MM. So that would leave you with something like 16/0/35 ( prior to 1.7 )
Due to deadzone ranged was f.cked in that sense as well. Arcane shot was expensive and didnt do that much dmg, Serpent Sting was not all that either, but gave you a dot at least ( preventing rogues to go stealth )
So yeah, I agree Surv was a hybrid as with many Specs back then, but do to your melee oriented playstyle acompanied with points in BM I would still look at it as a melee spec.
As of 1.7, it was more common to go 0/20/31 ( for PvP/duel purposes )
That being said, it was not until late AQ40/Naxx that Surv became a viable spec as they needed to hit the magical 450 Agi mark so they could take full advantage of Lightning reflexes. ( PvE )
My memory is a bit groggy, but I remember we had a Surv hunter on our server who dueled anything and was a pure pain to kill, if you even caught up to him as melee.
Well, in one way, people aren’t wrong on that. As the actual talents in the spec(prior to the changes), did mostly involve melee stuff. So yeah, looking only at the sv talents at the time, it was a melee spec.
Though as specs did not do as much to change your class’ playstyle back then compared to what they do now…
Like you said, it was a hybrid.
I’m with you on that, all I’m advocating for is that Survival tree was melee oriented at one point. It wasnt a good tree, but I found it fun. The whole debate about hunters should be ranged only has existed for 14 years
![:smiley:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/smiley.png?v=6" ":smiley:")
But is ok.
![:wink:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/wink.png?v=6" ":wink:")
![:slight_smile:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/slight_smile.png?v=6" ":slight_smile:")