The A-Team of Leadership


(Zarao) #1

Hi,

Interesting thought that I had while going over the thread that compares leader power levels.

Who do you guys think, would be the best representative/leader for each one of our playable races?
The one that would represent their values, motives, and interests the best.
It can be anyone, alive or dead.

For example, I’d say that Orgrim Doomhammer was the best orc leader their race had. And Varian Wrynn (In his final years), the best King Stormwind could hope for.

Any personal picks for the rest? If you guys think that any race is good as is, it’s ok. I do feel like Thalyssra is the best leader Nightborne could have.

Your opinion?


#2

I think Varian in his later years was a horrible representation of humanity. He lacked its flaws.

And that’s my problem with making such a list. Almost all Warcraft characters either showcase a good side of their race or a bad side. The cases where it’s both are quite rare. For example, they did a good job in showcasing Gelbin’s strengths (when they finally got around to it). But the weaknesses get kind of lost. Gelbin is also the gnome that gave the okay to Thermaplugg’s plans. It should be easy to showcase either how trusting and naive gnomes can be with that, how vulnerable they are to manipulated facts, or something else, I don’t know… Instead they chose to put all the blame on Thermaplugg, who had to be a gnomish traitor of unprecedented proportions, so that Gelbin couldn’t have been expected to distrust him. Thus Gelbin is the perfect gnomish paragon…without any flaws I could see. Gelbin doesn’t represent gnomes as they stereotypically are, but kind of a gnomish ideal. And that’s a bit boring.

And even in the flawed characters the flaws usually aren’t acknowledged or very representative of their people. Baine and Anduin are both too soft for the wartorn world they live in. But it is played as if they are just more… progressive, I guess. But if they are progressive compared to their peoples… this trait isn’t really a racial one.

With that said… I guess Daelin Proudmoore would be my pick for human representative.
Saurfang, the gruff man who has seen it all, struggling with his penance for old evils and the brutality of a warrior’s live seems like a great orc representative to me - and with humans like Daelin at the helm you qouldn’t have to worry about him going soft.
Rommath is what I think would be a great Blood Elf representative, focussed on magic, intelligent, low on compassion and hung up on old slights.
For goblins I’d like someone like Noggenfogger, ingenious, creative, profit-oriented, greedy and unscrupulous, Gallywix just doesn’t seem competent enough to me.
Pandaren as they are now don’t really need leaders at all.
Genn could have been great for Worgen, if they kept him the questionable character that he was. As is… I guess I would prefer someone like Godfrey, so very British. If they’re not gonna make the worgen curse really a curse, they can just go full dapper werewolf.
Gelbin could be fine for gnomes, but develop some flaws for the little guy, please! Alternatively someone a bit more nerdy that wasn’t introduces yet might serve.
Magni was ok for dwarves, but needed fleshing out. I don’t see any better candidates.
Draenei… Velen fits. But they should have some lesser leader who is a bit more practical.
Forsaken… Sylvanas. As she was before she got WoW-spotlight.
No idea about Tauren and Trolls, and not gonna go through the ARs.


(Zarao) #3

To be honest, when I proposed the above I meant taking in consideration their flaws too. My bad.

May have slipped with the wording, but by “perfect”, I didn’t mean some kind of ideal and flawless leader the race would/should have.
I was talking more about the most representative and positive for the overall culture of the race.

The one that showcased the racial flaws and resonated best with the mindset and motive of the race he or she lead.

To expand on it, I’ll give a few of my examples ( leaving those that I’d leave as is):

Orcs: Orgrim Doomhammer. The perfect combination that mixes the warrior and spiritual aspect of the Horde race. Intelligent and pragmatic when needed, and with a solid background and journey that had him reflecting and making amendments for his people’s slights against the world. Without forgetting that their wellbeing came first.
He was also stubborn and tended to be kinda warlike (not to the point of reaching Grommash level, but still). But in his late years he also tried to check himself and improve, to the point he died trying to save his people.
Pretty similar to Saurfang, but less diluted by foreign influences.

Tauren: Cairne. The prime example of Tauren values. More pacifist than Huln, but less an idealist than Baine. Wise, strong, and a superb warrior. The kind of figure you’d automatically follow.
He might’ve been a bit rusty and had a hard time catching up with the new pace of the changing world, but an old school veteran that still was of great value to his people.

Gilneas: Genn. Not the current one, but the one that competed with the other human kingdoms to control the EK, and that spoke as one amongst equals when addressing foreign states and kingdoms. There are bits of said mindset still around several Gilnean characters, but overall they have fallen excessively under Stormwinds hand. The kind of Genn we had in Tides of Darkness and Beyond the Dark Portal, would’ve been a pretty great representative of the Gilnean people.
As things are right now, Crowley is indeed much more “authentic”.

Forsaken: This one is tough. Overall, Sylvanas does seem to check all points regarding representation and motive. But maybe a more rounded up character, that seems to be recently being groomed for the role, is Nathanos.
He checks most the point regarding drive and mindset, and also has the additional bonuses of sharing the similar tragic racial background of the faction. Both are really quite similar, but race gives Nate a slight edge.
Both are kind of twisted and evil in their own way, but when ruling an undead faction, that’s a given.

Night elves: Kurtalos Ravencrest. Commander, with an almost royal demeanour, and a list of accomplishments that rely more on experience and proficiency, rather than divine acts of god, and providence.
He was the one that managed to gain respect amongst the Nigh elves, even when their society was as caste based (with the Highborne at the top). Even if he wasn’t one of them.
A great leader, that still had the kind of slightly racist and aloof demeanour that Night elves sometimes display.

Lightforged: Yrel. This one is controversial, but I would definetly merge the Lightbound and the Lightforged into a single race, and incorporate both virtues and flaws into their race. Yrel could bring some fresh Light zealotry, and create an ambitious drive for the race that would also differentiate them better from the Draenei led by a more moderate Velen.

————-

These are some examples of my picks. Left out a few that I might expand on later, while others such as the HM, the NB, and the Blood elves, would leave with their current ones.


#4

Purley subjective list, you don’t have to share these opinions of course.

Humans: Somebody with flaws. Like actual humans do have, we see it in Life all the time. Nobody from the “human potential” cast fits this bill at the moment. They can do wrong and always succeed at everything. Meh.

Dwarfs: Don’t know enough about the 3 council members tbh to say who represents the traits the best. Magni could do from his pre cataclysm persona.

Draenei: Velen has done his job good and finished the story arc with defeating the burning Legion. But should he grow tired of his responsibility, the Hand of Argus is ready to get go. I’m sure.

Gnomes: Gelbin. Not even worthy a discussion about it. Chad Gnome is Chad Gnome. Imagination, Spark of Invention and a brilliant mind. Blizzard better fix him up to health quickly!

Worgen: If Genn ever bites the dust, give the job to Tess. She seemd like a lewd girl in Legion. But all of Hous Greymane is good so it ain’t a competition.

Night Elves: I am not sure what Malfurion and Tyrande are all about right now, considering that. Maybe give the job to one of the Shadowsong Siblings if the power couple continues to fail hard like the previous Xpacs.

Pandaren: Let it stay neutral and forget about sellouts like Aysa or Ji. Chad Chen Stormstout is the only salvation for all of us! One of my favorite Characters represents the Pandaren way like no other. Or Lorewalker Cho maybe even.

Orcs: I almost wanted to say Saurfang, then I remembered Blizzard put alot of deathflags on his back of that worn out veteran soldier who actually feels remorse. But no. Give the Paragon job back to Thrall as it should be. He doesn’t have to lead the Horde, but he is the messiah for the Orcs. Show it again as it used to be.

Trolls: Rokhan is a scout, Gadrin is an Elder and Vol’jin is a spirit. Not much to work with here. Give the job to Talanji. In my ideal future scenario she unites all troll tribes who arent nutjobs and maybe even ascends to Empress of a united Azeroth. A boi can dream. Zandalar forever! Vengeance for Rastakhan!

Tauren: No. Just no. Nobody atm fits the bill. No matter how hard blizzard pushes Baine. He took too much time to collect his spine the proper way and the Derek story felt like a punch in the guts. Leave the slot empty until someone good comes around. winks at Mayla

Goblins: Goblins are nepotistic capitalistic jackjacks. Gallywix represents that trait the best already, all competence aside. If not him, then Boss Mida. Gazlowe COULD be an option, if he somehow manages to unite Steemwheedle and Bilgewater cartel, but he currently comes off as union workers rights activist to me. Time will tell.

Blood Elves: Rommath or Liadrin. Surley, nobody actually cares about Bob. He can’t even get any voice lines in the cutscenes where he shows up and almost defected to the Alliance like a coward. And his plot involvement is limited to stuff where he mirrors for the plot of a certain human frost-mage. Cut him out and give the job to those who carried his people/race ever since TBC.

Undead/Forsaken: Why even thinking about replacing Sylvanas with that Menethil hag, who is nothing more but Anduin’s political puppet for an Alliance controlled Lordaeron? Let Sylvanas stay. She founded the faction, worked them up, armed them, gave them purpose, identity and her face is literally the crest and banner of their new kingdom since the game launched. Nuff said. It’s all good.

Won’t go deeper in on the Allied races here since their contribution is as minor as it gets.

Di Chuka!


#5

+1 for Talanji. I would love to stay in Dazar’Alor. We deserve a proper Troll capital!


(Brigante) #6

Hmmm, Humans…
As much as I mock him, Anduin actually works, a boy-king with much older advisors actually fits for Stormwind somehow. I mean I liked Varian from MoP onwards, when he actually started to grow into the role of statesman as opposed to thug with a pedigree, and he still had the best death scene in the whole game, but even though they aren’t malevolent towards him, I can dig the idea of a raw youth, inexperienced, with varying grey eminences behind him.

Kaldorei?
Tyrande and Malfurion have had their day, both have existed long enough to become memes, a fact not helped by some woeful quests involving both. Have them go out in some vengeful blaze of Glory, repaying the horrors of Teldrassil. The duality of Kaldorei leadership is interesting though, and a ‘power couple’ works for them thematically. I’d suggest (not as an actual couple, as Jarod is married) Shandris and Jarod. They both deserve more screen time and are solid characters.

Dwarves.
To be honest, they’re fine as they are, but they just need more activity. Magni was good, but there is no way of undoing his current status that isn’t going to look a bit naff. Keep the current trio, just ramp up their activity a bit.

Gnomes: Gelbin Mekkatorque. Just unfreeze him already. Not only is there no other viable candidate (Though Tanaris questing Kelsey Steelspark comes close, when she drops the ditzy airhead act and goes all ruthless) but he is the epitome of ‘If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it’. Just as he started to get some quality time on screen, they nix him. No. Don’t. Bad Blizz. Put the Gnome down and walk away. He is perfect as Gnome leader. I hate his voice, but then that is just Blizzard not understanding how biology works…Biologically, given their barrel chests and build, a Gnome should have a far deeper voice, similar to a Dwarf. They’re not human children, they aren’t waiting for their voice to break, their women should sound Contralto, and their men Baritone, or even Bass. But that’s just a peeve of mine.

Draenei: Velen is a joke. He is a Prophet who seems to be able to see the future in every situation apart from any situation that would actually be useful. They should never have killed off Maraad. That big blue bada$$ should have been the Draenei leader. His ‘Lords of War’ cinematic where he slammed his hammer down and knocked over all of Varian’s toy soldiers sealed that. He showed a more realistic face to the Draenei, that they -can- show anger… This said, still second best Death scene…That Music…

Worgen: Simple. Genn. Just Genn. He is absolutely the right leader at the right time, and one of the best characters Blizzard has written. A bitter, vengeful old alcoholic, who lived long enough to see history prove him -right-! If Terenas had listened to him and Anasterian there would -be-no Horde today.

Orcs: Running out of options here. Garrosh was rubbish, the older Warchief’s weren’t really that much better. Saurfang has the right mentality but dear old Gaius Julius Caesar said it best “I love Treason, but hate a Traitor”. Saurfang went too far. He could have acted against Sylvanas, whilst being guilty of Treason (Except he isn’t really, but that is a different argument), however he then became a Traitor when he expected the Alliance to remove Sylvanas for him. Despite what many think, there -is- a difference between a person being Treasonous and a person being Traitorous, for example Treason is betraying an Oath or allegiance so Vol’jin’s rebellion was treason (It actually wasn’t due to the terms of the Blood Oath of the Horde, but again, different argument) he was however not a Traitor. He was going against his Ruler, he was not giving up Orgrimmar to the Alliance. If he had offered Orgrimmar to the Alliance in return for their aid in deposing Garrosh, he would have been a Traitor. You can depose your own ruler as an act of Treason, but for it to be Traitorous you must depose them to the benefit of your enemies. Even so, Saurfang will carry that stigma with him, however righteous his cause. If not Saurfang, then who?Eitrigg isn’t quite iconic enough, it has to be, yep, you guessed it; Thrall.

Trolls: In a neat symmetry with the Kaldorei I’d like to see a ‘power couple’ lead the Trolls, a true unification of the Horde Trolls, Rok’han and Talanji, but much more in keeping with Queen Victoria and Prince Albert. Talanji is a queen, Rok’han is a Shadow Hunter, of no royal blood. The two already seem to be very close, as some of the Nazmir quest dialogue shows, so why not go that extra step, we know that Zandalari and Darkspear do not actually find each other hideous, we see this in ‘Shadows of the Horde’ (Unless Vol’jin was an absolute hottie to female trolls), They get on, why not?

Tauren: There is no one apart from Baine. Cairne if alive, would be preferable, but there is no other Tauren. Magatha is the only other iconic Tauren, but she would shift the Tauren too far away from where they are, as well as likely cause a civil war. They just need to use Baine better. They also need to ditch this idea that Baine is too young to rule the Tauren. He is Cairne’s -Son- for goodness sake! Cairne was over 100 when he died. Baine could be 80 for all we know. I don’t think he is, but someone with a 100 year old father is not likely to exactly be a teenager now are they?

Blood Elves: Fine as it is, Regent Lord, two Advisors. The one change I would make is swapping out Halduron for Liadrin. Lor’themar and Liadrin are apparently a low-key ‘Item’ according to ‘Blood of the Highborne’ and he implicitly trusts her, sending her to lead the various military expeditions. Rommath is the crotchety old man/elf, the cynic and puritan, Liadrin representing the new age of the Blood Elves, their new way, and Lor’themar the balancing factor and leader. Anyone who thinks Lor’themar is a nobody has clearly started playing since WoD. You cannot have played patch 5.2 without going “OK, this dude is pretty damned awesome”. It would also balance out the Triumvirate to reflect the three major power blocs in Blood Elf society. It would change from Farstrider Boss, Magister advisor, Farstrider advisor, to Farstrider Boss, Magister advisor, Blood Knight advisor, which would more accurately reflect the cultural makeup of Thalassian society. (Reminder, the Farstriders are actually a political body as well as a military one)

Goblins: Boss Mida. Everyone hates Gallywix, even Maldy, the woman he sends presents to every year, hates Gallywix. He is a bipedal Jabba the Hutt, Boss Mida ‘Her Tallness’ seems to be much more well regarded. Would give an interesting female leader without kowtowing to the ‘Female rulers be cray-cray yo!’ stereotype which Blizzard do have an unfortunate reputation for adhering to.

Forsaken: Frankly, anyone but Sylvanas and Nathanos. They are the Tyrande and Malfurion of the Horde. Their time has passed, their story is done. Let them go. I don’t care if it is Grand Apothecary Farinell, or Derek Proudmoore, I just don’t care. I have Forsaken Fatigue, everything has to be about them. I have become so uninvested in the Forsaken story because of this insistent pushing of two characters who -were- cool, but then Blizzard made weak, that really, I don’t care anymore, Heck, Lilian Voss, or the really big beefy guy from the starting Forsaken quests who can carry like -SIX- people without breaking a stride. I have one request, one request only. Whoever it is, for the love of all that is holy can they look like a Forsaken, as in a rotting zombie, so not catering to the ‘Hawt Undead’ trope?


(Rojbin) #7

I want a troll leader who says: Stay away from the voodoo.


(system) closed #8

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