The Horde can never be united as long as our old enemy the Alliance is still standing. It is madness to even assume that there should be peace with these alliance dogs. Also. What a waste of a character. Thrall should have never returned to the Horde and desicrate the name of the Horde. He is a merley another alliance yes man who doesen’t deserve to be part of the leadership of the mighty horde. Instead of Thrall let an Orc with actual guts take the leadership of the Orcs as a race and have Thrall executed like the waste of space that he really is. Down with Thrall and everyone else who are trying to make peace with the Alliance.
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Thrall literally chose an ‘Orc with guts’ back in Cata.
Since we’re probably going to meet Garrosh in Shadowlands, you can ask him how that went then.
You know there is still pvp content if You’re that “bloodthirsty” Elf
They even give You armored unicorns once You get 15 Hlvl, it can even fly now 
If there uis anyone who dont deserve to be part of the horde its you blood elves as you have desicrate the name of the Horde far more time than any other race
Thrall is a traitor, just an alliance lapdog.
Hes not a fool at all, he done a great job in MoP + BFA for his masters.
While your baine betrayed horde to help the ones that killed our Zandalar king and after this his chilling right next to talanji in Dazar alor.
1traitor down.
2 more to go.
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You do understand if this so called traitor did nothing the Horde wouldn’t exist at all. Also the MoP butchering of Garrosh is to blame for all of this mess really.
He was never meant to be a villian. If you did the Nagrand quests, you would know what I mean. But alas we needed a big bad and he was convinient.
Keeping the small scale conflicts going and adding a few more spots were the factions try to expand their infuence would have been a better story than the frankly unsatisfying total wars that we’ve had to endure over the past ten years.
Unlike you the filthy blood elves baine never betrayed the horde
Betraying the horde is Baine’s butter on the bread. Stop being delusional cow man.
Oh you Baine fanboys…I could make a case for him betraying his own people even, several;
How else would you call it when your leader turns the other way when his people get slaughtered, only because of a bunch of individuals who plotmagically become his best friends upon first they met.
Looking the other way when the enemy faction armed and abetted a hostile tribe that was responsible for a coup on his nation’s capital, murder of his father and the leader of his nation, murders of tribesmen that fell under his protection.
Sabotaging his own factions war effort over one of his plotmagical buddy’s brother, risking the future of both his people and his faction in the midst of a race war that could verywell have seen them all dead after what happend in Ashenvale, Teldrassil and Kul’tiras.
I’d consider that treacherous and a severe dereliction of duty to his people, reason enough to have him considered unreliable and deposed.
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No it was the Blood elves that betrayed the horde. So stop being delusional yourself gelf
Im not a Baine fan boy im just stating the obvious you ignorant fool. And the rest you write is just nonsense as it was the Blood elves that betrayed the horde sabotaged their own faction
Your counter arguments are non existant as always, if what I wrote was ‘nonsense’ - Sources are in game questing events and the Shattering btw - Then they should be easily debunked, yet you come up empty worded on that department.
To busy obsessing over Blood Elves it seems.
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Yes my arguments do exist its only people like you that is to dumb to actually read what people tells you so congratualations you just showed everyone that you are even dumber than we thought with that sentance 
. And im not obsessing over elves like i have already told you im just telling the truth as people like you and Erevien enjoys making up rubbish that is incorrect
Well, at least between fans and haters of the Blood Elves all threads are derailed for Blood Elves eventually which is good for us fans because we like talking about them…so haters are doing us a favour actually 
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Baine had every reason to betray the Horde back in the Shattering. Garrosh, through his very deliberate inaction, chose to support Grimtotem a coup in Thunderbluff, even after they besmirched his own honour by making him kill Cairne with poison. The Horde had shown to be more of an enemy than a friend. Indeed, at that time, the enemy, Jaina, gave refuge to Baine, and heped him organize his next moves against the Grimtotems. Anduin also promised him friendship, no strings attached, and even gave him a sacred item of some importance. So yeah, Baine and the Tauren should have had more reason to help the Alliance than the Horde at the time. Remember that this was before the Cataclysm questing.
When things got tough for the Bloodhoofs, the Horde did not stand with them. And Baine? Did nothing about it. And that sets the tone for the rest of his rule. No loyalty to the Horde, but no guts to actually break with them. Sure, there were little acts of rebellion, but never something that couldn’t be overlooked, if the Warchief wanted to. Indeed they could even calculate Baine’s petty and harmless acts of defiance into their plans. Sylvanas certainly seemed to do so, using him to make the political internal Horde conflict a military one that was meant to be bloody.
So yeah… Baine would never betray the Horde. He doesn’t have the guts. The Horde could use him as a rug, and in retaliation he would secretly spit in their meal and think himself a great rebel. He doesn’t have any real loyalty to it, either, though.
Yeah, but No - While true that “The Horde” did not intervene when the Grimtotem tried to overtake Thunder Bluff, don’t downplay that Gazlowe and his crew actually went out there with their zepelins to help and Jevan Grimtotem and a sizeable number of Grimtotem turned against their own chieftain and tribe to help liberate the capital - No magic Jaina there, no Anduin or Alliance troops.
And a weak plot friendship out of nowhere that should’ve ended abruptly soon after;
Indeed! This is an important part; because in the Cataclysm questing it shows us Alliance troops, with Jaina Proudmoore’s stamp of aproval, murdering Baine’s people, burning down their villages and besieging Mulgore itself - I don’t know about you but that doesn’t seem like a good friend, or someone that deserves more help or loyalty than the faction that secured a future for his race and a home.
Let us also not forget that it is the Horde that comes to aid the Tauren in the Barrens and we players, as it’s soldiers, are asked to break the siege at the Great Gates and drive the Alliance out of Tauren lands.
And here I ask again, where is Baine? He’s only there after, to shrug off the dead as legitimate collateral damages.
But ofcourse, as soon as he learns his ‘dearest friend’ Jaina Proudmoore is in mortal danger, he risks the life of one of his own to warn her, so she atleast has a chance to save her people.
So no, I’m not convinced - If anything I find Baine owes the Horde, because the Horde, despite a Garrosh Hellscream, despite a Sylvanas Windrunner, did more for his people than he ever did so far- That he act differently is on his characterization, not the Horde, this is simply what the story shows us.
What an awfull character he turned out to be, how anyone can defend it is beyond me.
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Apologies for the tone of my post…
But Baine’s characterization is really one of the worst parts of WoW’s storylines, in my opinion, it was also one of my biggest letdowns of Tauren lore and development, since WoW became a thing, and Cairne not doing jack before he got killes off in an awfull book.
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Tauren actually are like Dwarves in this regard…just because the Orcs saved them once (just like the Humans saved the Dwarves once in the Second War), both these races feel they have to be loyal to the Horde/Alliance forever…by that logic almost everyone in Europe should do what the USA tell them to do all the time because they saved us once during WWII…realpolitik doesn’t work like that, and this blind loyalty is actually part of the reason these two races are both bland and uninteresting for quite a lot of players, not just Baine
…I kinda described how he was a coward whose only reason for not being a traitor is a lack of balls to really pull it off. If you think that’s defending him, I’m kinda curious what you think me condemning him would look like.
Gazlowe wasn’t Horde back then, though. His ressources weren’t Horde ressources.
And I was just saying that’s a ton more than he got from the Horde at that time, yes. Also, actually asking for that kind of help might have worked with Jaina. Baine didn’t. And as long as he hadn’t decided to leave the Horde there was no way to reasonably do that. Alliance troops, fighting Tauren in Thunder Bluff without invitation? That’s called an invasion.
Sure. Doesn’t really touch on my points, though.
I wanted to say that it depends on the point in time… but I actually don’t believe that. Defending a military asset in a war you started isn’t really something to inspire loyalty. Certainly not to the degree that it beats killing the High Chieftain, leaving Thunder Bluff to be taken over by Grimtotem, and oh, yeah, condemning the next High Chieftain to death for freeing a torture victim that Sylvanas chose to dangle in front of him.
I think the only point where the Horde helped the Tauren with a problem that the Horde didn’t create in the first place, was at its founding, when Thrall actually helped them.
Also… the Alliance siege of Mulgore is actually still in place in the Jaina novel. So I’m actually not sure if the players’ efforts in the quests are in any way relevant to canon. Like so often, Blizz is wonderfully inconsistent… If Christie Golden sees an Alliance force with siege weapons at the Great Gates of Mulgore, you can be sure they will still be there when she writes a scene that takes place there.
No worries, I’ve taken and given much harsher critiques here, without taking it personally, and we all have our pet issues. And I certainly wasn’t defending the quality of the story here. But it is the story.
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