The Irony of Honor

WoW Classic WoW Classic General Discussion
61

You are desperately trying to derail the whole thread into who is getting hurt and who is not from the original:

“People gaining honor points in game by instead of fighting fair, gank people regardless by any means therefore loose real life honor for being a**holes toward other people.”

And I need help? :grinning:

You are the one who can’t even understand this simple thread! :laughing:

I always said in many other posts aswell that those who whine about PvP after they choose a PvP server, are pathetic.

You are pathetic for another reason, you desperately want to make this thread into a “players whining for getting ganked” thread even tho we have plenty of those already. lol :grinning:

62

Says the guy that brought his sister into the convo…

63

You pick parts of my comments to try and prove that I’m dodging your whole point, but in fact that is not the case. If you try to understand and carefully read what I’m saying, you will see that I do not miss your point since I’m directly addressing your point with my opinion about it.

Did I not say that I disagree with you? Did I not say that killing someone in a game is by my opinion not dishonorable in real life? I tried to explain to you why I think that way by taking other games and situations as an example.

You try to make people feel bad about killing others in an unfair way by claiming that people’s feelings get hurt, that I and others who think differently are sociopaths, and then you compare a few online kills in a 15 y/o game to your fictional sister committing suicide because she got bullied online. You don’t even respond to what I’m saying and you just keep on making these crazy comparisons.

Let me try one more time in a slow tempo so you will understand.

Your point is this: people who kill players of the opposing faction in an unfair way, unfair being outnumbered, low health and being ganked after corpserun, gives you in game honor but not in real life. In fact, you claim that it is evident that the killing of the online characters of players in an unfair way is DISHONORABLE FOR THE KILLER IN REAL LIFE.

My point is: I don’t agree. Why? I’ll explain with a few bullets:

  • real life is real life and it has nothing to do with WoW. Me being a ganker in WoW does not make me a bad real life person. I gain my real life honor for being a good partner for my gf, a nice person for others, a productive member of society with a job, helping others in real life. And I gain my honor in WoW by killing nubs like you :wink:

  • I sort of agree with unfair killings not being honorable in game, even though you get honor points for them. Killing an unarmed man in real life for example is dishonorable in real life, but killing a player online can never be dishonorable in RL.

The moral of the story is that anything you do in-game, how annoying and frustrating and dishonorable it may be in that online world, it has no implications for your real life honor status because actions in the game don’t have real consequences.

You might feel like a really bad person by killing a lowb online, so for you it might be RL dishonorable to do that. For me that’s not the case.

Mate this is enough. If you still don’t understand me then it is what it is.

If you think you can gain real life honor or dishonor then stay and in that fairy tail and try to enjoy that.

And always remember, Truck Simulator is a great game!

1 Like
64

I agree but everythink we do comes from what we are. What kind of people are wow gankers?

65

Nonsense. They may be a jerk irl or not… prove otherwise.

66

I only asked a question. How i can proove a question?

67

100% saint or 100% psychopath, or anything in between.

68

I can play that card too. How about you do the same, and present evidence?
My “evidence” is called “life experience”. There are chances, in some extremely rare case that it is the way you think it is. My point is, general logic is against you.
We are discussing statistics here, not speciffics.

69

There have been many studies and a quick Google turns up numerous results. No link was found between video game behaviour and real life behaviour. One study could be debated, but multiple studies with the exact same finding? It’s up to you to prove the link since you are the one making the claim.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/01/180116131317.htm

https://www.forbes.com/sites/olliebarder/2019/02/15/new-study-shows-that-there-is-no-link-between-violent-video-games-and-aggression-in-teenagers/#3e39b738328e

https://www.forbes.com/sites/olliebarder/2017/03/09/new-study-shows-that-playing-violent-video-games-does-not-turn-you-into-a-psychopath/#40ac6d8c6ec6

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

So, your own subjective personal experience. That’s not evidence of “Acting in a bad manner in a game tells a lot about you rl” being a general situation.

An assumption based on what?

Your argument is illogical, because you use your own personal opinion as a single source of evidence that game behaviour is linked to rl behaviour for all except rare players.

Then show us the stats that indicate a link for “Acting in a bad manner in a game tells a lot about you rl” in the majority of these gamers.

Or are you just making all this up?

1 Like
70

I don’t argue at all with what you just posted - I often defend this particular claim myself.
You are missing my point. One of the reasons the link between ingame behaviour and RL one is broken is because in RL there are consiquences for your actions. In game too, but they can be mostly avoided.
I really enjoy this conversation, it isn’t necessary to reach one opinion, sharing different viewpoints is always profitable for both sides.

71

Because it seems you are truly interested on the topic, give it a read on Wikipedia about Stanford Prison Experiment - how it was set up, how lond did it last and what happened.

72

It’s a fact, there are rl consequences to every rl action we take, that can have a rl impact on you and other people.

It’s a fact, there are game consequences to every PvP game action we take, that can have a game impact on your character and other people’s characters.

In those study results, there’s no evidence that not caring about consequences in a video game means not caring about consequences irl and “Acting in a bad manner in a game tells a lot about you rl”.

Agreed, I love to debate. Every statement should be challenged, yours, mine, everyone’s. If a claim is made, it’s good to show evidence though or admit it’s just an opinion based on no evidence, which is fine - but call it what it is.

Every study’s merit can be debated, and studies are not necessarily ‘fact’ but they can be weighed. The ones I posted could be bs, but they are recent, relate to video games, and are more than one study - so I’d give them drastically more weight than a dubious 50 year old study that doesn’t relate to video games. Disagree?

Not to say an old study is irrelevant, but Stanford Prison Experiment:

  1. Is almost 50 years old, that’s half a century ago understanding of psychology.
  2. There’s allegation of fraud on behalf of the participants - and the most famous participant admitted acting.
  3. It does not in any way indicate that behaviour in a video game relates to rl behaviour.

https://www.vox.com/2018/6/13/17449118/stanford-prison-experiment-fraud-psychology-replication

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/06/20/new-stanford-prison-experiment-revelations-question-findings

73

Not nonsense, actually. There are many studies that show numerous correlations between player actions/choices and who they are. On the top of my head, one or a few studies looking at different roles in MMOs found significant differences in personality. For instance, people who choose the healer role have more agreeableness(on the five factor model) than people who play other classes(from what I recall). There are a plethora of studies showing correlations to many aspects of people’s lives depending how they play and how often. I’ve performed two myself. My first one was with Hearthstone players. Where I found statistically differences in their type of personality.

The articles you posted were news articles, which is not like reading the real study itself. Anyway, yes, there’s little to no correlation between video game violence and real violence. Though, those aren’t the only studies. To be fair however, I don’t know of any studies that look at bad manners in video games vs behaviour in rl. I’d think a problem with this sort of study is how to measure bad manners in video games.

74

We are talking about bad behavior in a game relating to bad behaviour irl. On request from another poster, the studies I linked show no correlation between ‘bad’ behaviour in a game to irl behaviour. To counter, they posted the Stanford Prison Experiment - which has been demonstrated as fraudulent, but is also outdated and unrelated to video games.

Correct. And it’s up to the claimers to show the correlation. If they can’t show evidence, then it’s just their own personal opinion. Which is fair enough, but call it that.

The optimum study for this topic, would be to 100% observe say 5,000 gankers without their knowledge both in game and irl - and see if any correlations. However, this would be so unethical, that any question of gamer ethics would be out the window lol.

The problem with more realistic studies done with their knowledge, the participants can modify their behaviour during the study. For example, the most famous participant in the Stanford Prison Experiment admitted acting.

The indirect methods of study are also flawed. Just because someone looks at a violent video game image and then picks a non-violent word from a list, doesn’t mean not a bad person irl… but it doesn’t mean they are. There is no link.

On top of that, there is huge potential for studies to be flawed in general - with results ending up as the desired results.

So there’s no for sure way to measure this. But currently, it’s weighed towards being a non issue - unless someone has actual evidence to the contrary.

Yes I linked to news articles which can be misleading, and confirmation bias is always possible when searching on Google. Human nature! You called me out on it, and that’s why debate is good. But those studies are the only relevant evidence posted so far :slight_smile:

75

Ok. I was responding to this remark.

It’s safe to assume, from numerous studies, that in-game behaviour does correlated to behaviour in real life. There are also numerous studies that show our behaviour is influenced by the game itself or even the avatar (E.G. the proteus effect). A quick search on Google Scholar, on this topic, showed a fairly recent study that found people who self proclaim as grievers really do have different motivations for playing - more competitive related. I only read the abstract tho.

Title of study(I cant seem to post links): Griefers versus the Griefed — what motivates them to play Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games?

So when Ichirga says -

There is some merit to it, at least in the field of psychology. Though there are no studies, that I know at least, that look at bad behaviour in virtual worlds that translates to bad behaviour in the physical world. It is, as you’ve noted, an opinion. Nonetheless, one does affect the other. I’ve tried griefing and do it on on occasion but I usually feel bad if I do it too often. I’ve noticed that some people tend to do a lot. I’d suspect that there’s something more going on other than them just having fun, as is with most of human nature anyway.

Aye, debates are usually fun :stuck_out_tongue:

1 Like
76

Did you read everything in this? (citations, references, figures)

I am always skeptical when it comes to these test, no matter what result they give.
And in some places I find this study to loose.

But then again, the purpose was also:
Therefore, the aim of this paper is to examine the factors that motivate the subjects of griefing to play MMORPGs, as well as the factors motivating the griefers.

This is the first 3 sentences in the conclusion :point_down:
As expected, the respondents who identified themselves as players who performed griefing, were more likely to rate the motivational factor ‘competition’ higher than those who were subjected to griefing, due to the competitive nature of the former

If I may nitpick in the study:

I can’t see anything regarding the players being mentally unstable as often claimed on this forum :blush:

But I do find it interesting to look at how those self-proclaimed griefers look at gaming, and what causes them to enter the game in the first place.
But also where the griefed players would place their motivation factor (from the conclusion too :point_down:):

the more often a player was subjected to griefing, the higher his/her ranking of ‘customization’. The griefed players’ mean rating of ‘immersion’ was higher than that by griefers, especially ‘escapism’, which was found to be significantly higher

I saw a video by Madseason with infamous players, where one rogue in Vanilla (I think), had the aim to be the most hated player on his realm.
I believe this guy could be labeled as a troll: His aim was to destroy the gameplay of others, just like a forum troll aims to emotionally poke a people.

What I concluded in this study is, that griefers are very competetive players and as a result it often happens that other players ends in the recieveing end.
And to me that doesn’t sound unreasonable at all.

But to label every situation where griefing happens, to say that the griefer has a bad personality - I can’t agree to that, there is too much unexplored to say this is the final result.

2 Likes
77

Put a ` at either end of link. It will not be clickable, but can be copy pasted.

Ok, I accept it doesn’t necessarily ‘say nothing about irl’. But I still disagree with the original notion that bad behaviour in a game means the majority of those players behave bad irl, or are predisposed to.

I have an opinion on pvp complainers tho…

How they behave in whispers and on forum says a lot about them irl. I have no evidence, just an opinion… but would love to see a study on this!

78

Are classic players competevive? There is rated PVP and mythic raiding in retail. That’s the hard content yet here we are.

79

Good question, the study didn’t include players from a specific game :smile:

And I will not use this forum as a reference, because it only shows a fragment of the players.

But if the claim and maybe result was that Classic players was competetive players, what would the reason be? :thinking:

Does Classic bring a certain player-personality?.. Does Classics’ build nurture the competetive side of people?.. Was the hype before the release the reason? - it is impossible to say :man_shrugging:

80

People who chose PvP servers shouldn’t whine about world pvp, my problem is not with world pvp, even though I think its mostly for 12 year olds with parent issues but thats beside the point, its a PvP server so they have the right to PvP.

The problem however is blizz messed up big time, they said they wouldnt change anything but then completly change the dynamic of the game by allowing 3 times more population, economy is all messed up (black lotus is a good example), and pvp is not occasional anymore its constant.

Right now I am considering quitting the game till they resolve the issue, this is far from the classic experience, its a broken game atm. This is actually ruining all the good memories I had of the game.