Meh, even he states that this Horde is no longer the one he knew. And in that, I agree.
The Horde is a much more complicated organism than the one that makes up a single race. And it’s foundation goes far beyond Thrall alone. Thus, I don’t think he is the only one to take credit for what it is/was/will be.
The Forsaken in the other hand, much like plenty other races (Draenei, Night elves, Pandaren,…) do rely more on their leader in terms of ideology and symbolism. They have little room to vary.
The loyalist conclusion has her admitting that even if she does indeed care little for the living, she pities the Forsaken because she understands all to well the hardships they’ve been through.
Thats what I meant by her caring about them to some extent.
Even in Goldens book, that is but a blatant introduction to the villain bat that would eventually kick her out of the faction, there are bits about her caring (in certain way) about the Forsaken in particular.
No.
Orcs and trolls didn’t change, that’s the problem with removing Sylvanas.
Once their leaders were gone, orcs and trolls were left in a void and ignored by the narrative.
To this day, we don’t know what orcs and Darkspear stand for, now that Thrall (the one we initially had), Garrosh and Voljin are no longer around.
Even when they were around, the way their race was presented didn’t start nor rely on their leading figures in such a centric way as other races.
For a race like the Forsaken one, and given the terms under which it was presented, the problem will be twice the one trolls and orcs have.
Edit: Will instead of would. At this point, Sylvanas leaving the faction is a given.
For the first time trolls had their agency in BfA when working with Zandalari. I’d rather for Darkspears to become even more tight with Zandalari as Horde not only is in pitiful state but even sabotaged their efforts.
With undead they already had different narrative taking a route with Voss and Zelling.
As for orcs - they are in worst position. Only used as meatshields, no agency at all.
It speaks volumes about what potential stories could come up after removing a leader of a race that has had much of its ideology based around her, if the races that aren’t as lenient on their leaders, and that went through a similar process, have as their immediate “bright future”, needing to be tied to another “better” version of themselves (in the Darkspear example), or as meatshields and random grunt fodder (in the orc case).
That’s why removing Sylvanas will probably do more harm than good.
To have both Zelling and Voss, Blizzard still relied on a Sylvanas initiative such as the Valkyr.
And theirs still is a story that circles back to the “freed but forsaken In undeath” that goes directly with what Sylvanas stood for after freeing them from the Scourge and giving them a purpose.
Minor iterations such as those are still part of a greater arch that goes back to Sylvanas (the Sylvanas we had up until BfA and her villain batting).
Even if there are stories about Maarad fighting the Scourge in Northrend, the crux of the Draenei culture is still one of errant space nomads that fled their world with the guidance of a prophet. Those stories still need a Velen.
I highly doubt removal of Sylvanas coud be near the level of harm Vol’Jin’s death caused. As his death screwed up not only narration of his tribe but faction as a whole. In ideal world we would have forsaken replacement set up in cata and Vol’Jin suriving Legion.
But you’re wrong DS had their role in invasions and warfront showing that even as leaderless they are managing fine and can organise themselves pretty well. So they recovered a bit from their loss.
I think Vol’Jin’s void can be Now filled if they will give more set up story for Rokhan. He is a shadowhunter, veteran and proved himself to be charismatic. He needs now to take initiative and take reigns of his tribe. Vol’Jin was tied to Horde very much but not to other troll tribes, Rokhan thanks to Zandalari could change this approach and search for partners in other troll tribes.
That eould be a huge step imo.
And well previously Forsaken didn’t need Val’kyr, there is tradutional necromancy still and Bolvar is still LK. If the hints about return to northren are true they could get something from it, in the end LK is not gone as they planned.
To clarify, the argument I’m making is by judging their race in a vacuum and seeing how her eventual departure would affect them specifically.
The overarching faction story has repeatedly been shown more than capable to drive itself onward regardless of the deplorable state some of its races might be in.
BfA has been an example of it. Same as Legion. Neither needed Darkspear or Orcs to have a leader in order to push for their target plot.
Narratively speaking, that’s still hardly enough. Orcs have been used as default grunts and baseline soldier template for almost every war story in the game. And still remain without a proper story and motive as a race. Nor do they have a leader (or supporting characters for that matter).
Without wanting to sound bitter, but I’m personally not that keen on giving Blizzard the benefit of doubt and the chance to go over the Darkspear situation once again with another race.
And I find little solace in the fact that two years of zero lore and a follow up with a substitute that in essence is Discount Voljin and a B-tier character for the MMOs standards (no offence to Rokhan), is the way to go about.
Yes, at this point I’d welcome it. But that doesn’t make it good.
And to be frank, I don’t want that for any race. That’s why I’m positioning myself against the scenario that might make it happen to the Forsaken.
Well maybe we could have asked that fella in Hillsbrad Foothills, you know the one planting farmers in the ground like seeds. Maybe he was on to something.
That same argument could be used for the other races for a degree. The reality is if you are not careful with your supply of “natural” resources, you are in danger of losing them. Limbs are, in fact, natural resources and considering the undead have less or no needs living things might have, like food, I think there’s room for synergy there. And yes, I’m talking about bodypart farms. Maybe I have been playing Forsaken for too long.
Let’s be real - how many years had to pass when they finally decided to develop Vol’Jin to actualy make him act like a leader? Rokhan started in BfA despite having cameo in WoD.
He was appearing quite often in this expansion, and is getting more favorable in-game treatment than Vol’Jin ever had. If they’d keep this pace, and give him more pro-troll angle after the big fiasco with Horde they had recently I’d even argue he would be better choice.
I was ready to entierly cross out Darkspears after Legion, In that expansion this tribe reached the very bottom, but now they’re crawling back, characters are returning, sure it could’ve been done better - but that applies to everything. I’d be acting petty if I wouldn’t recognise bone when it was finally thrown at me.
Horde is now broken but If factions would be disbanded for racial narrative I’d actually welcome it at this point.
I’ll wait til Blizzcon to see what they will do next, they will either make it or break it. So I’ll hold up my breath and not judge anything yet for one month.
To be frank, you are way more optimistic than I am at the moment.
At this point, Blizzard would need to throw at me the entire skeleton in order for me to give them any credit.
They wouldnt last long on a dead planet would they? I mean Forsaken bring death. Death - emptiness. The moment Forsaken conquer the world it would take couple of years for planet to be barren wasteland. Easpecially with the notorious plague.
I guess. He was involved in some extremely confusing romance with Johnny Awesome.
Which is why I said you need to be careful with your “natural” resources. Killing everything knowing it will cost you in the end is extremely stupid and the Forsaken are not stupid, or at least they were not before BFA.