Two days into Midnight and I'm done. A Horde main's perspective

I want to share why I refused to buy Midnight on the Epic edition, even though the price is reasonable for a game of this scale. A friend who knows me well talked me out of it, because he understands that for me the lore is everything. Two days in, I’m thanking him. This expansion would have broken my heart.

Tl;TD [We cannot make Allience the main power so let’s bully the Horde]

I started playing WoW at age 10 during Wrath of the Lich King, on an Alliance Paladin. I leveled to 79 before something stopped making sense to me. The Horde were the ones actually carrying the story. The Paladins kept preaching about “the Light” saving everyone, and every time, they ended up with corruption, treason, or failure, and a savior group from the Horde would arrive to clean up the road to victory.

Take the wars between the factions. The Alliance keeps writing the history books claiming they won, but I don’t believe they ever truly did. Turalyon, the same Turalyon you see plastered all over Midnight, who was central to Legion, has always been, in my reading, a man desperate to be a great hero without the foundation for it. The simplest concept of war in any human civilization is honor, and that’s what he’s missing.

I have hundreds of moments to back this up.

I never killed Garrosh Hellscream in Mists of Pandaria, because in my eyes he was making the Horde great again. I uninstalled Warlords of Draenor the moment Thrall (with absolute Cheating) killed the son of the orc who once called him brother. Grommash Hellscream gave his life to free the orcs from the Blood Curse, and Thrall murdered his son, an orc whose only crime was wanting the Horde to be the dominant power on Azeroth. If you played the Krasarang questline in 5.1, you remember Garrosh telling Vol’jin: “Your lack of vision is why your people are still primitives, and your lack of loyalty is why I did not summon the Darkspear for this campaign.” That wasn’t villainy to me. That was vision.

I uninstalled Battle for Azeroth when Lady Sylvanas was forced to lose so the writers could put Anduin, a man with no real personality, who looks like he’s permanently searching for a lifeboat out of every disaster, on a pedestal as the peace-bringer. The same expansion that gave us the Old Soldier cinematic, where Anduin performs a mass resurrection of fallen Alliance after the Horde just tore them apart. If a single Priest can mass-res, then logically the Alliance population should never decrease, they have immortality on tap. So either remove the Horde faction, or stop pretending it makes sense.

Saurfang was a High Overlord. He deserved better. Sylvanas deserved better. The Horde deserved better than to be stripped down so Anduin could look noble.

I came back during Cataclysm Classic just to feel a story whose goal was actually saving life on Azeroth, not bullying the Horde.

And now Midnight.

It is not acceptable to keep using the Horde as a punching bag. There is no reason a Horde player should be forced to follow the storyline of a proven liar like Turalyon and his son with father traumas. I’m a Horde. I want to save Azeroth with my warrior spirit, not by holding hands and praying to something as cosmetic as “the Light.”

If the Light was the true power of this universe, why did the Army of the Light beg Illidan Stormrage for help in Legion? Illidan turned Xe’ra to ashes the moment she tried to force him into her plan. While I was running quests gathering shards of her, I kept asking myself: why am I collecting this useless piece of glass? I handed the fragments to Velen and Turalyon expecting nothing, and the cinematic that followed rewarded me exactly because Illidan refused to be the Light’s puppet with the glorious dialogue:

(“Rejection of the Gift”)

  • Xe’ra: “Let go of your shattered form, and embrace the Light’s power.”

  • Illidan: “I’ve traded my freedom for power before.”

  • Xe’ra: “The prophecy… must be fulfilled. Your old life has passed. The Light will forge you a new one.”

  • Illidan: “This is not yours to take!”

  • Xe’ra: “The light will heal your scars!”

  • Illidan: “I AM MY SCARS!”

  • Xe’ra: “The Light is your destiny!”

  • Illidan: “MY DESTINY IS MY OWN!” (Reasonable, to the point, and FACT)

  • (Illidan destroys Xe’ra with his eye beams)

(And the comedy part of the cinematic was Turalyon’s reaction)

And now we’re supposed to believe the Light will stop Xal’atath, by gathering casters (including the famous caster of the whole WOW lore Anduin) to channel some “Light of Whatever-It’s-Called” into the Sunwell? The Sunwell is already corrupted into the Darkwell. Turalyon and Alleria fell through it. The Light didn’t save them. It didn’t even save itself.

Light has always been cosmetic in Warcraft’s actual history. Even in fantasy comparisons, in Harry Potter, the people who saved the world were the warriors who fought, not the ones who prayed. I’m tired of this hollow fantasy framing, and I genuinely don’t understand what Blizzard is trying to accomplish with it.

In Midnight specifically, I’m being harassed into:

  • Following Turalyon’s storyline

  • Meeting Eitrigg, a sitting Horde chieftain (Blackrock clan, since Dragonflight), now sitting at the Sons of Lothar’s Winter Veil dinner. The Sons of Lothar. The same group founded to chase orcs back through the Dark Portal and finish the job. Putting a Horde chieftain in that room is, frankly, an insult.

  • Saving cats while Quel’Thalas burns

  • Solving Arator’s father issues

  • Being slowly convinced that “Horde is bad.”

(And i just spent 2 days, and got lvl 82).

I’ll bet anyone reading this that the resolution of Midnight will depend on a character who/whom (you know whom i believe :smirking_face:) is, by any honest reading, a fundamental enemy/ex-enemy of the Allience.

To anyone who made it this far: I’m not asking for the Horde to win every war. I have enormous respect for King Varian Wrynn, a true warrior, a true vision, the bearing of an actual king. But his son? I cannot accept Anduin as a king. Even Blizzard’s own trailers show him passive and uncertain.

If the Alliance roster is weak, write them better characters with cleaner lore. Don’t keep nerfing the Horde to make the Alliance look strong by comparison (In Midnight Horde dosen’t even have Warchief for God Sake).

From Mists of Pandaria onward, every expansion has stripped another Warchief from us and forced the playerbase to accept that the Horde is the problem. Garrosh, Sylvanas, and now even Eitrigg, folded into the very faction created to wipe orcs out. I don’t know how much further this can go before there’s nothing left of the Horde that the original story called family.

And my final thought is belong to one beloved person who died unfair in Mak’gora Warchief Garrosh Hellscream, i found this post from redit which user named themalestorm wrote:

My final thoughts belong to one beloved person who died unfairly in Mak’gora: Warchief Garrosh Hellscream.

I found this post on Reddit from a user named themaelstrom who summed it up better than I ever could:

(Vanilla and earlier) Garrosh is born as the son of Grom. Legendary orc, hard to fill his shoes. Just when he’s about to prove his orciness, he gets sick and is left behind. He learns his father was the one to sell their soul to demons. Garrosh is now super depressed.

(The Burning Crusade) Out of nowhere comes Thrall and the Horde peeps, and Thrall is like, “dude, Grom saved us, shake this depression and join me.” Garrosh has to go, of course. How else can he prove himself in life?

(Wrath of the Lich King) Thrall places Garrosh in a command position with Saurfang. That’s the best thing that ever happened to Garrosh, really. Saurfang is wise and knows how to deal with orcs. UNLIKE THRALL, WHO’S A PANTSY HUMAN DOING ORC COSPLAY. Anyway, Saurfang tempers Garrosh’s steel and his impatient, aggressive mood (he’s pretty much like his father, really). Garrosh is mostly exposed to orcs, and his new mentor is also a very orc-ish orc. He’s building up confidence, and of course he hates the Horde’s enemies. He doesn’t really get the whole diplomacy thing. Orcs aren’t always super warlike, but in the end they’re used to sparring and respecting, not cuddling and liking others.

He keeps clashing with Varian, who’s also super anti-Horde and anti-orc (since he lost his father to orcs as a child). Jaina and Thrall try to keep things diplomatic, Varian and Garrosh build up conflict. Thrall’s behavior is unacceptable to Garrosh. Thrall does little more than scolding him in a PANTSY HUMAN WAY, saying things like “I’m disappointed.” Protip: it doesn’t really help. Anyway, the campaign is successful. In his first command against this “Lich King” that everyone was so afraid of, Garrosh succeeds.

(Cataclysm) Thrall needs to be a shaman and discover his orcish roots (god, he’s such a hipster). So he’s like, “Cairne, I’m gonna make Garrosh the new Warchief.” Cairne is like, “Wth dude, don’t be stupid.” Thrall says, “Nono, you can help him, it’s gonna be okay really.” In truth, Thrall feels responsible for him and wants to believe in him. He sees Grom in him. He forgets how he had to punish Grom for refusing to obey orders out of bloodlust. Or maybe it’s his guilt that stops his PANTSY HUMAN BRAIN.

Then he goes to Vol’jin saying, “Yo voodoomon, am gon make Garrosh warchief,” and Vol’jin’s like, “Dude wth, im gona fite you irl.” Thrall’s like, “lol u funney, ok im gonna do it then.” Then he goes to Garrosh saying, “Dude I’m gonna make you Warchief,” and Garrosh is like, “Dude wth, I can’t do that, make me like a commander or something, I like playing shooters, not paradox strategies.” And Thrall’s like, “okthen, you’re the new warchief, bye.”

SO PLEASE REMEMBER THIS PART, WHERE EVERY FUDGING PERSON, INCLUDING GARROSH, TOLD HIM NOT TO GO WITH IT, AND HE DID IT ANYWAY.

So, he’s Warchief, and gotta say, he was pretty badass. He grabbed orcs by the throat and dropped them off cliffs for being dishonorable. He sent his army to attack and single-handedly took down a dragon attacking his flying ship and stuff. He also allied with the Dragonmaw Clan, who are pretty much into the old orc ways. Thing is, he’s clashing with people left and right. Because of his lack of confidence, he gets defensive. Defensiveness causes issues. Issues cause clashing. See the problem there?

So at some point, he and Cairne clash in a Mak’gora. This is an orcish traditional fight to the death, where you’re allowed to wear a loincloth and get one weapon. Plus you can get a blessing from a shaman. You’ve got to understand, Garrosh takes this whole honor thing pretty seriously. What he doesn’t know, however, is how sinister Cairne’s enemy Magatha Grimtotem is. She poisons Garrosh’s blade secretly when she offers a “blessing.” So Cairne and Garrosh start fighting, Cairne is totally winning, and then Garrosh manages to scratch him… but the poison is so strong that Cairne just dies. Garrosh is like, “lolwut.” Then he’s furious when he learns what really happened. He says, AND HE MEANS IT, that he’d prefer to have died rather than win like that. Thankfully, Baine, Cairne’s son, is pretty chill about it. Of course, this creates a big divide between Garrosh and others, leading to even more isolation.

(Mists of Pandaria) Garrosh is even more aggressive and orders Pandaria to be conquered. Stuff happens, he goes after Pandaren artifacts, more isolation, more clashes… Things escalate and escalate. No one trusts Garrosh at this point except his orcs, and the feeling is reciprocal. So eventually Garrosh goes out of control, finds an Old God’s heart, uses it, defiles a sacred ground in Pandaria, creates a sort of second orcish Horde, and finally turns into a monstrosity thanks to Old God influence. Horde resistance led by Vol’jin and Lor’thewhoever, plus the Alliance, attack Orgrimmar and capture him. The pandaren hold him for a trial, where we see he’s actually more than meets the eye, but his actions don’t change much. He says he regrets nothing. Anyway, bronze dragons yadayada, powers yadayada, and woosh! He’s now in the past, in an alternate dimension.

(Warlords of Draenor) Bronze dragon wants to control him, so Garrosh kills him. Then he goes to his father and warns the orcs of Gul’dan’s betrayal. He shows them some tricks from his own Horde, and they start building the Iron Horde to mount a revenge attack on us. Dadgar yadayada portals yadayada, we attack back yadayada. In the end these adventurers attack Garrosh, and he faces Thrall in MAK’GORA. WHERE YOU ARE ONLY ALLOWED TO WIELD A WEAPON AND USE NO SPECIAL POWERS. WHAT DOES THRALL DO? HE NOT ONLY FUDGING USES HIS MAGIC POWERS, HE EVEN FLAUNTS THEM. Then he kills Garrosh.

So.

Did Garrosh do anything wrong? Totally (i have objection which going to describe). Who’s the main person to blame? Thrall. Thrall fudging forced Garrosh into a completely alien environment (I mean literally, he’s from another planet) into a seat of power, when Garrosh was still shaking depression and sorting out his issues. It didn’t work out as well as it could, so what did Thrall do? He gave Garrosh ultimate power. Garrosh even refused it (just like anyone with a little common sense, really). But nooooooo, Thrall had to go ahead and make it happen.

There you go.

https://www.reddit.com/r/heroesofthestorm/comments/6ok8e0/garrosh_hellscream_lore_made_easy_for_everyone/ the “themaelstorm” comment under the post.

First of all, the Alliance didn’t march into Pandaria to defend the pandaren. Let’s not pretend they did. So my honest question is: if the Alliance had been the ones to find the Heart of Y’Shaarj buried under Pandaria, would they have left it there untouched? Absolutely not. This is ultimate power we’re talking about. The pandaren spent thousands of years holding back the corruption, and they were losing the grip on it long before we arrived. The real fight in Mists was about who would reach that power first, and what happened the moment Garrosh did? The losers blamed the winner for finding it first.

And finally, about Sylvanas. Apparently it’s unacceptable for her to use her banshee powers against Saurfang at the Gates of Orgrimmar (heartbreaking, and once again Thrall’s fingerprints are on it, he’s the one who pushed Saurfang toward that duel knowing exactly how it would end, another “brother” sent to his death by the same orc cosplayer), but it’s perfectly fine for that same Thrall to flaunt shamanism in a Mak’gora against the son of the man he once called brother? In a duel that explicitly forbids special powers? That’s not honor. That’s a double standard, and the writers should be embarrassed by it. Thrall doesn’t even carry the guilt for any of it.

THE END.

2 Likes

Garrosh was a power-hungry, petty tyrant who may have started out with noble and understandable goals but lost himself to madness and corruption in the end.

Enslavement, displacement of entire groups of people, assassination of political rivals, harrassment and intimidation, all carried out by himself or under his orders.

That is wrong. It is an invention of the Movie.

The rules of a Mak’gora are determined by the contestants. Cairne and Garrosh choose to only wield one weapon and no armor. However, in another Mak’gora between a Bloodelf-Paladin and an Orc-Shaman (from the Comic: “Bloodoath”), they booth used no armor, but used their magic.

And in the first Mak’gora between Garrosh and Thrall (shortly before WotLK), they booth used their full set of armor and Thrall also used the Elements.

So unless we ever get confirmed, that they both agreed to ban the use of magic in their last Mak’gora: THRALL DID NOT CHEAT

Probably, because their High-King ordered to not use the sha-energy when it was demonstrated to him (see the Alliance-Questline in MoP)

No they lost grip on it pricisely because the Alliance and Horde arrived and send the Sha-Energy into a frenzy.

Something which is also explained in the Main-Questline.

Firstly…no Thrall did not push Saurfang to do the Mak’gora…Saurfang chose that himself.

Secondly…the Problem wasn’t that Sylvanas used her Banshee-Power. The problematic part was that she yelled out loud what she really thought of all those loyalists she pretended to care about: THE HORDE IS NOTHING!

2 Likes

Not defending the dude, rather what he did just made his character more fleshed out.

But it is true that he was forced onto the mantle with much of his rivals and fellows not really supporting him from the get go. Did he deserve support? Nah, not really. Especially with how hot-headed he often was before taking up the mantle.

…At the same time we shouldn’t really be surprised that he did what he did and became what he was. The writers of Garrosh did a pretty good job displaying someone put onto a seat of power despite declaring not wanting it, only to be immediately threatened by subordinates (The arrow-into-your-heart by Vol’jin for example) straight after. As well as governaning a city that has been starving and struggling whilst its warchief at the time was often nowhere to be seen. (Thrall had a world-ender to deal with etc. etc.)

I feel like it’s actually more uncharacteristic and rather alien if Garrosh was sagely, wise and non-combative in reacting to all this pressure. It paints a rather effective picture of inefficiency, but still trying to make it work.

He was petty, he was a tyrant and he was maddened and corrupted. But let’s not forget that everyone else around him weren’t innocent either.

3 Likes

It seems you’re getting very worked up about some weird, self, made-up lore.

I’ll provide some links below so that you might brush up on the sources.


Mak’gora (also written as mak’gora[1] or Mak’Gora[2][3]), meaning “duel of honor”,[4] is an orcish custom whereby someone may challenge another person to individual combat. The ritualistic duel[5] has been often used to obtain a position of leadership, such as a fight for the position of group leader,[6] clan chieftain,[7] or Warchief of the Horde, but not necessarily.

[…]

Mak’gora used to be traditionally a combat to the death, but under Warchief Thrall’s rule it became a non-lethal combat, though participants can choose to forgo this change.[1]

[…]

The rules of a Mak’gora seem to be different between each Mak’gora since they are chosen and set by the participants themselves. Generally, there are thus no specific rules. There are only two consistent themes in all Mak’gora: once dropped, a weapon cannot be retrieved by either opponent and that the pair must fight to the death or until submission. Magic, for example, has never been stated to be forbidden, and has, in fact, been used in multiple Mak’gora duels and thus seems to be permitted. Similarly, many Mak’gora duels have involved both fighters wearing body armor as well, but it can also be forbidden when explicitly required.

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Mak%27gora


2 Likes

I feel this little rant isn’t exactly something that calls for factual corrections. It’s an expression of the feelings this specific player experienced while identifying with the struggles of the Horde. The tone, or if you like, the vibes, that brought them in and that are felt to be lacking now. Even if everything was headcanon, the conclusion would be the same “make it like that, please”. With “that” being along the lines of “warlike but honorable”, or something like that, in this case. That’s something you counter with your own preferrences, not with corrections.

1 Like

Voljin aswell cairn warned Thall NOT to put garrosh in chagre since they alredy knew he is a hotheaded, Northrend proved it (the dilaolge in borean tudra, teh ulduar cinematic aswell the argent tournement) aswell his behavior in the shattering Novel, where he slaugther a shipwrked alliance crew, which cairn dissaproves.

They knew he is a spoild child an he cuased troube, so Thall did appoint voljin and cairn as his advisord but he give a shi. on them and that why voljin threnten him if he goes to far

Well. Yes.

That’s the point.

What benefits Garrosh is that he did try to fix the problems Thrall forced on him to deal with. Trying to solve a food crisis because your former boss made a city in a desert out of symbolism instead of resources is quite a trial to solve.

Honestly, a lot of the repercussions and consequences the guy suffered was pretty immersive and sensible, compared to a lot of other similar elements.

3 Likes

Thank you so much about pointing it, but before judging my point AS YOU MENTIONED:

The rules of a Mak’gora seem to be different between each Mak’gora since they are chosen and set by the participants themselves

Ok let’s re-review what happened between the Thrall and Garrosh:

In the final Mak’gora between Thrall and Garrosh Hellscream (at the Stones of Prophecy in Nagrand), they didn’t agreed on any rules.

Which has 2 meanings:

  1. it points to the original Orcish mak’gora (obviously both of them are Orcs) and you can ignore the cosmetic peaceful rules that Thrall made about “non-lethal combat”, and Fight with honor in Orcish way and one of it’s strict rules about the definition of “cheating” is using surprise powers or poison without prior agreement and is widely condemned by orcish society and leads to a loss of respect.

  2. There is no rules (and i don’t know why most of the people wanted to agree with this one, where there is no honor in that. in every sort of logics ranged/magic powers always has unfair advantage against the mele warriors. and btw WTH is the point of using it. are we 2yrs old child to agree with anything without proper logic?) even for this one there must be agreement.

    and since i really think about the logic, i rather to put the base of my mindset on the first one and blame the hell out of thrall because of cheating.

IF THRALL WANTED TO USE MAGIC HE MUST INFORM GARROSH: “HEY DUDE, I WILL CALL THE EARTH TO EAT YOU!”

I didn’t made up anything after 16 years of exploring World of Warcraft mate.




and about the first comment of my post since i have only one slot for reply not replying every post i will put it here later i will inform the writer of the first comment about my thoughts.


Dear Jaspathal, i strongly disagree with some part (after i reviewed i found it out i made description for every comments you pointed ) of your conversation.

Garrosh was a power-hungry

No he actually was not the person you mentioned and here is why:

First of all the Garrosh child hood was filled with the shames and the blames of the sins which he did absolute ZERO with it, all he wanted was Honor, and Respect.

He tried so hard to become a Warrior, not a wise advisor, not a president, All he learned about it was WAR, and war comes with the Violence, and every single other thing which can break a normal person mental and the way he is thinking.

A man who learned only about the war know the Survival, Making Fast decision and planing good strategy to win the war are in top 3 priorities and everything he did was not even a millimeter out of the scope of top 3 priorities i mentioned.

Maybe you have argue about the “Making Fast decision and planing good strategy to win the war”, so let me explain it to you:

Thrall forced garrosh to become Warchief, garrosh understand the Warchief as a military leader, but Thrall had mentality of a President for that rank.

Garrosh knew about it and mentioned honestly with Thrall that he is not a good fit, since all of the board members are totally disagree with him and he cannot do anything.

tbh, it is my idea but i think it is pretty the reason that Garrosh always had anger against every single member of the board which ended up with mocking him, having meeting without his notice and try to do everything against his opinion. Just imagine yourself at his position, You won the war, you led the military and gain unquestionable victory in WoTLK you become the Warchief, you got the Thrall promise about helping you, Thrall promissed that the board members will try their best to train you about the diplomacy, Thrall promissed you that they will not stand against you but they will notice you about mistakes and consequences and finally all you got was a Loneliness, Hunger and Water shortage because of the Stupid decidion of placing the capital in the Durotar, and suddenly every single of the board members are disagreeing with you no matter what is your idea and what you wanna do.

So basically you get the mental breakdown about all the things and betrayal and as a Warlord you use the exact same method you know to make everything ok as Garrosh did.


About the Mak’Gorah please review my comment at the beginning about what Shaan said and please share your opinion about it with me i really like to know about it.


About

Probably, because their High-King ordered to not use the sha-energy when it was demonstrated to him (see the Alliance-Questline in MoP)

ofc NOT, we all know how the Allience and Horde found the Pandaria.

Both of the parties started to gather ally from the Pandaria and both made Camp infront of each other in Karasarang Wilds, Let’s agree that Garrosh was always a step ahead of Varian on pandaria,and he found the Pandaria a good place for fulfilling the food and supplies that horde needed Night Elves denied for any supply contracts with the horde because of everything happened by Grommash and the old Horde which Garrosh has nothing to do with that, when you see a nation are hungry and having lot’s of life matters shortages and you deny to help them while you fully aware how painful it is, do not expect their warm welcomes.

Varyn Hates Garrosh, Varyn Hates Horde and have same control over the other mentality that Garrosh had about the Horde so obviously he would do that with a peacefull interface because everyone on the Allience side are ok with massacre the Hordes since they still remember the wars. If he is a wise king and he on his beliefs he would 100% do that.

So Garrosh wanted the pandaria as an answer to all the life matters problem which every single horde’s board members where blaming Garrosh about it, and everyone wanted/tried to beg Allience for mercy and help which is tbh as a person who loves Horde (talking about myself) is not acceptable and is the exact description of treason, Basically you beg for mercy when you are weak not when you have power to conquer and fight.


about the

No they lost grip on it pricisely because the Alliance and Horde arrived and send the Sha-Energy into a frenzy.

Something which is also explained in the Main-Questline.

What is the definition of control here?

If the pandaren’s control wasn’t so weak and fragile the Sha-Energy whould never get into a frenzy by just two ships from two nations who always had conflicts with each other.

it is like building a sky scraper on not a powerful foundation, it will be destroyed one day and you cannot blame the weight on the building you should blame the people who made the foundation of it first.


no Thrall did not push Saurfang to do the Mak’gora…Saurfang chose that himself.

I strongly believe thrall did it and here is why,

From all the strong board members Thrall Chooses the Vol’jin out of All the Golden options after the thrall, Lua of death done some (long story) Voljin choose to make Silvanas as the warchief (it going to be clear in this expantion i have a lot of signs that Lua of death was somehow done what Xel’atas wanted to progress his plan) and suddenly all of that wise guys of the board who disagreed with Garrosh for every single decision and thoughts he had, accepted it and nobody punished or blamed Thrall and Finally Sarofang choose the only and ONLY available option and died so it is the actual chain effects of the first decidion and second decidion and not arguing about choosing Silvanas as warchief ended up to Sarofang death, Sarofang died because of his love about the horde and it’s people and he made wise decision to sacrificed himself.

the most WTH topic i had when Silvanas choosen for being warchief was Every single member of the board knew she did suicide in WoTLK, Everyone know she is suffered so much, she is in deep pain and depression and anger, but everyone trusted her to be totally fit candidate for the Horde warchief (It is all a big Joke, The very first item which must have consideration about it when it comes to choosing or electing someone is reliability and stability).

I strongly disagree with Garrosh for being warchief and have same reasoning for Silvanas too.

as Garrosh mentioned to Thrall about himself “I am not a diplomacy guy” and Thrall simply ignored it, Silvanas also wasn’t a “Diplomacy and peace woman”.


Secondly…the Problem wasn’t that Sylvanas used her Banshee-Power. The problematic part was that she yelled out loud what she really thought of all those loyalists she pretended to care about: THE HORDE IS NOTHING!

First of all, all the people got shocked because of two thing instead of one you mentioned; Using the Surprising Banshee-Power which is literally act of cheating because of the note i replied in the Mak’Gora ‘s Topic at early beginning + “ THE HORDE IS NOTHING!” part.

i am not denying the second part and tbh Horde after Thrall started his Very Honorable Diplomacy (consider it with a sarcastic tune i don’t know how to express it in EN and i’m sorry for that) Horde and every single thing which gives the horde it’s meaning shattered so (the continuous of this sentence is only my opinion and my feeling) “THE HORDE IS NOTHING!” is actual a true statement, it started to become nothing after what they did against Garrosh.


And at the final,
some of the texts i wrote can cause miss understandings and i was aware of that even at the beginning, but the question i sincerely ask is why nobody even care that what happened to horde now? they don’t even have the warchief, i barely name it Horde.

Where are all the Honored Warriors, the Hordish true culture?
one part of the quest lines in Midnight was specifically blame the horde and restoring that dude’s Shield which after all the long long quest-line he refused to accept that.

Why nobody cares about such things?




Dear Wimbert, about

I feel this little rant isn’t exactly something that calls for factual corrections. It’s an expression of the feelings this specific player experienced while identifying with the struggles of the Horde. The tone, or if you like, the vibes, that brought them in and that are felt to be lacking now. Even if everything was headcanon, the conclusion would be the same “make it like that, please”. With “that” being along the lines of “warlike but honorable”, or something like that, in this case. That’s something you counter with your own preferrences, not with corrections.

I cannot agree more w/ you about what you mentioned, basically it is a story and we “i as the player” literally living in that, as a Horde player i never killed Garrosh in SOO and never even tried to do that even i washed the whole SOO till Garrosh with all the heroes i had in the my old lost account and new account i have, because i believed that it was wrong, and tbh i am not denying it that i got hurt by that logic blizzard provided.

i am not forcing and have no power and no interest to force anyone for doing anything or changing anything that i can like it, im way old for believing the world is fair or it is in the way i like it.

i just started this topic to know, am i wrong or am i alone on this sort of believes?

I Love Horde and i remain a Horde Believer, and as a champion in the Horde who grew up with it, i am asking this questions:

  • Why Horde is not involved in Midnight like it was before? (at least i feeling this way)
  • Why the Horde become so weak? (which really hurts me)
  • and Am i wrong about the Garrosh? ( because is not make any sense to me and i have logical reasons for me, i am not saying he was right all the time, but he wasn’t that much villain as Blizzard wanted us to believe in that expantion. He Stood agains the force of Jailer FOR THE HORDE which Anduin didn’t and not even had that power to do that)

(sorry for my dictation and English i hope i delivered what i have in my mind and thanks for your reply mate :smiley: )

Es ist immer wieder witzig zu sehen wie Allianzspieler Charaktere wie Thrall auf ein Podest heben und die mehr als nur legitimen Argumente ignorieren weil sie ja dann ebenfalls infrage stellen müssten wie Blizzard die Geschichte bis hier geschrieben hat. Ein weiterer Grund wieso Posts der Allianzseite ignoriert werden sollten. Es betrifft euch nicht, also sagt auch nichts drüber.

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What kind of reasoning is that?

Garrosh went up against a shaman. Not just a shaman, THE shaman.

And when you really want to be that specific…”My power is all around you” is a very clear warning.

But again, Garrosh was a Tyrant, so for me, it doesn’t matter of Thrall cheated, he did the right thing by putting an end to him.

Garrosh had ample oppurtunity to not become what he became, and he always chose to go the route of a maniacal Tyrant. He chose his own fate.

If the Horde only can be “something”, if it is only good and the best version of itsself when a all-powerful Tyrant is at its head and orders a punch of bloodthirsty warriors around who kill and burn and scream “Honour!” while doing so…then the Horde truly deserves to be nothing.

The Night-Elves canceled those contracts after the Wrath-Gate incident. To be fair, Garrosh only had something to do with that indirectly, but the Night-Elves had justifiable cause to revoke those contracts.

If a House goes up in flames because of arson, I would personally blame the arsonist and not the flammable material inside the house.

I could not make any sense of what you wrote after this so: No.

To answer your Question about the Horde and its role in Midnight: The writers want to tell their story and the Horde (or the Alliance for that matter, the Alliance is more then Turalyon and a punch of Paladins) does not have a place in it. And yeah…I find that frustrating too.

Wrong language, Erevien. You are still perma-banned in the german forum, remember?

But answer me this, if I change my character to my Forsaken or Tauren for example, would that make all my statements valid?

I find statements like this interesting. So i’d like to ask where were these so-called opportunities? Again, to remain spirited to Garrosh as a character and his concept, I find it rather hard and difficult to find said moments and opportunities.

If I disregarded Garrosh entirely however, and thought of it entirely as a meta/hindsight , then yeah I can think of many ways. But then that can be applied to any and everything else.

Keep in mind, they did try to give a level-headed and more insightful vision of Garrosh a try in Stonetalon. Even to the point of quoting a war veteran like Saurfang, but that apparently was not how they wanted to write or make him act, thus we are left with limiting directions.

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I would suggest that what they mean is that other characters were giving Garrosh “outs”.

Naturally, the writers chose to have him completely disregard these.

Yet the point is potentially that Garrosh were shown to be given opportunities to take a step back by other leaders constantly. There’s arguably no room to suggest that Garrosh as a character was in any way pushed to his resorts to justify his actions. Thrall, Vol’jin, Varian, Lor’themar—the list is long with characters that sought to advise him on how to better approach any and all situations. He always chose blood, he always chose aggression.

He was arguably, thus, not “pushed” to what he became. Thrall definitely left him an imbalanced and fractured Horde, but I wouldn’t say that justifies flat out genocides.

And that contradict everything we saw previously for him.

Like in boring tundra egre ge wanted to attack the alliance to seize their ports, dismissing sauerfang

Or in the ulduarcinematic whew he provoked the confrontation, even thall told him to stop but he continues sb then attack varian

In the argent tournament the same where he proxies ans seek confrontation.

In wolfheart he slaughter a shipwrecks alliance crew

He was ALWAYS hotheaded, he wanted blood and war.

Also garrosh order the bomb to di a turnaround when it was used.

It didn’t make sense and show the writers had no plans or 2 teams and none knows what the other were doing

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Oh there’s no mistaking the pure grievances to what he has done, no. Genocide is never justifiable by any means, but my thoughtpoint on Garrosh is that while his actions are not to be forgiven, but rather to open and widen the perspective that his options were limited and, objectively, a lot of the more peaceful or level-headed options feel more inconsistent to his character and the understanding of orcs overall. We know for one that Thrall is not the conventional Orc.

It is not that I wish to devalue player opinion on it, but to show detail that there is more to Garrosh than the lumbering, mindless tyrant brute he is often touted to be with quite a bit of an unlucky streak attached to him.

One could easily say: “Garrosh could have easily made peace instead! And opened an orphanage! And created a charity! And negotiated borders on Dustwallow Marsh instead of blowing Theramore up!”

… But would he? I don’t think so. That’s no Garrosh at that point.

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Exactly.

For as much Garrosh has faults, they made a pretty good character that gave his shot. Unfortunately that shot screwed over a lot and undid quite a bit of detail.

Nevertheless, if they changed him to be better, I feel like there’d be more wrong in Garrosh than there is now.

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Garrosh served his purpose, he was always meant to be a successfull officer that got thrust into a leadership position he had no place in, or was simply not ready for.

He seemed to believe that himself atleast with his dialogue in the fight with Thrall, like it was done to him.

Ultimately tho, while he has a point, there wasn’t anyone holding a gun to his head daring him to do things differently, the directions he tried to take the horde in were born of his own choices. Maybe Thrall could’ve gone for a better candidate sure, but maybe Garrosh could’ve not tried to merge with the corpse of an old god.

Liked the character for what he was meant to be, was compelling.

op’s rant smells like erevin the same illogical reasoning but at least his shown his true colors as a troll

Necrobot spammer located:

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The only thing I agree with, is the fact that we do not have a warchief. To me that should be mandatory for a faction like The Horde.

Councils are for humans and pretty elves, not for Orcs, Taurens and Trolls.

My best advice is to stay and see how it goes, the game is still quite enjoyable honestly.

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