Play the mission you start it. 1min in you chop a tree down and the Nightelves attack. No killing wisps, no killing ToAs. It´s not like the Nightelves put up warning signs or so they just went in and attacked. Second the Orcs didn´t know sh**. They call the Wisps dancing light and just say the ToA is brimming with magic they never talk about sentience unless you provide proof.
Third you can´t go in attack people without warning and then play the victim card when they suddenly fight back.
But please go on and pick just the parts in every post that you don´t want to hear and ignore every other sound argument the people in this discussion provided. And you have the nerve to talk about Charades and trolling. just incredible.
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Grommash trespassed with a Warsong army on Kaldorei territory with the intent to despoil the land of lumber and therefore desecrate items holy to the Night Elves. He made the claim, in broad daylight, for all to hear, that he was going to clear out of trees the entire section of Ashenvale they landed in.
Afterwards, the Night Elves attacked. After the Orcs had:
- Trespassed on their territory (albeit with ignorance)
- Began cutting down the trees the Elves consider sacred (albeit, still with ignorance)
- Made the claim they not only intended to cut a few trees, but proceed on a plan for deforestation.
This is basically the equivalent of a group of humans entering an active Zandalari temple, beginning to take down all the altars and steal the riches under the belief it wasn’t inhabited, claiming they were going to raze it down, but proceeding to take the rest once they discovered that people still lived there anyway.
Sure, the Night Elves were absolutely ruthless in their response and this thread started on an example of their mercilessness with invaders. However let’s not pretend that the Orcs were victims, or innocent, or good-intentioned, because at the first warnings of natives, they decided to kill them all and destroy their living trees along with them.
Honestly not a complex dilemma, win the good fight Sentinels, kill them harder.
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Standard Tyrande. Horrible, horrible character. Really hope I get to mutilate her.
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It isn´t. A temple is a building that directly indicates that someone built it and might still life there in most cases you can find traces of inhabitants. In a Forest this does not necessarily apply. Taking the WC3 Campaign as reference the Orcs were as you already pointed out ignorant. They only knew of the Nightelves after they attacked with remarking that these Women look like Elves but more savage. Your example falls a bit flat but i understand the intent.
I´m not absolving the Orcs of all the blame but consider this by attacking without ever trying the dialogue the nightelves forced a violent response. Seeking the dialogue might have resulted in the Orcs not listening but this option was never even on the table.
Second Cenarius did regrow the entire Forest with a single move of his hand in Wc3 the guy could pretty much feed every races demand for wood without breaking a sweet appereantly but again he goes for the violent approach. With the knowledge we have today about Wild Gods etc. this was probably the worst route Cenarius could have taken but again he paid with his life for it so i see no problem here.
I have no problem with the Nightelves being xenophobes and acting based on this but i think saying this behaviour is justified goes a bit far.
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Neither it necessarily applies to a temple that to humans looks abandoned.
Quite right, no party involved was interested in diplomacy.
Yes, in response to the Orcs’ likewise violent approach and their destruction of the wildlands with the intent of depriving the forests of the resources that belonged to the people Cenarius swore to protect.
Once you enter a land owned by someone else, you submit yourself to their jurisdiction, sometimes trespassing on borders with a military presence is all it requires for an aggressive response.
The Orcs went the extra mile, not only did they trespass, they sought to pillage the Kaldorei’s lands and slaughter any defenders who tried to hinder their invasion. And I’m not using a word as morbid as slaughter lightly here, I’m talking about bloodbath levels of havoc, with Grommash getting to be glorified in a roar while standing on top of an Elven banner, surrounded by decapitated women, one head he’s even wearing as a trophy: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Grommash_Hellscream#/media/File:Grom_Glowei.jpg
They forfeited any generosity the Night Elves might have shown to their needs and in turn the Sentinels were wholly justified in driving them out of their homes in any way they saw fit.
Sucks that to this day the Warsong still have a presence in Ashenvale in-game. Maybe one day righteousness will finally prevail and any Horde that breathes in that forest will instantly die 
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But you said actice Temple. And a Forest can sprout without any sentient life being there but a temple does not grow out of the Earth. So you expect people in a temple and its surroundings but not in close proximity to every tree.
The Nightelves are familiar with the Tauren, Furbolgs, Trolls and their own former Highborne all these Races build Houses, Tents or whatever out of Wood and sometimes something else. So the Nightelves are familiar with the procedure of people chopping wood as resource. They meet a complete new Race and their first approach is to shoot them. I don´t understand how you can pinpoint that as the Orcs being at fault.
Second you think as someone with knowledge from our real world where borders are established and you have knowledge about a world map and so on. Kalimdor is no such land. There are no signs of habitation in that Forest nor did the Nightelves show their presence in any way because whispering in the Forest and scaring Grunts and Peons does not count as warning or talking since we very well from the War of Ancients the Nightelves are capable of engaging in dialogue.
Sorry but the picture is as far as i could find out not an official Blizzard Artwork all my searching did turn up is that it is a Fanmade piece of art. So if you can proof that this is actual a Blizzard Artwork i concede that point to you but his own Action Figure shows him without such accessoires and in WoD he sports some Sabretooth Skull on his belt.
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Just like the forest, Ashenvale, was active.
How do you determine that a temple is inhabited, but a forest isn’t? A temple could have been built centuries ago, then left to rot by the people who used to live there. Just because it’s built instead of grown it doesn’t mean it’s automatically inhabited.
The signs of native presence were evident in Ashenvale, on the other hand. In fact, Grommash and the Warsong literally hear the voices of Night Elves, but dismiss them as ghosts.
A race that barges into their home, destroys the symbols they consider sacred and openly admit to planning to deforest the Night Elves’ lands, all for their own gain. When met with resistance from the denizens, if they were in any way good-intentioned, they would have left the forest and went to harvest lumber elsewhere.
They decided to turn it into an invasion, where they pillaged and murdered left and right. How are the Orcs -not- in the wrong here?
Ignorance doesn’t justify a murderous rampage to satisfy a lumber fetish.
If we still use my example with the Zandalari temple, where a group of humans trespass thinking the halls are abandoned, destroying sacred altars and stealing gold, would you say the Zandalari still living there, and who rule those lands, would be wrong to kill the humans despoiling their holy grounds?
The humans didn’t know the temple wasn’t inhabited/didn’t care to notice the obvious clues, and they needed the money, just like the Orcs needed the lumber. So would they be in the right in your opinion?
?
You say that there were no signs of habitation then immediately after acknowledge that the Orcs heard the Night Elves talking, but somehow it doesn’t count as indication that the forest is in fact inhabited.
Lol, alright.
Look in the bottom left corner.
Blizzard’s logo is winking at you.
And this is the guy who drew it, mind you:
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Wei_Wang
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Unless you’re Amani, - or trolls overall. You cannot respond to people tresspassing with army and if you do you’re villanized for centuries for such an act.
The artwork is showing orcs to be already under the influence of demon blood, with their eyes literally on flame.
And I find this description to be disingenous.
Orcs aren’t innocent guys, they have a lot on their conscious, BUT! Back then they literally had no idea that the land they’re stepping at was occupied, they just went for some lumber and were attacked.
They never met nelves, they had no idea that this land was occupied, and they had no idea trees could be sacred to someone else.
But you’re framing it as well intended invasion from the very start. Which wasn’t true at all.
I haven’t touch WC3 in ages, so correct me if I am wrong - but weren’t orcs showered with arrows as “hello” ? To they point they had to fight their way through it?
I remember one scene in particular which was how Grom decided to drink the demon’s blood despite Witch Doctor advising him not to because “it’s some bad juju”. It was the only option for orcs to survive the encounter with nelves and the demigod that approach them immediately.
And orcs are born killing machines. They were raised in a very unforgiving world filled with ogres, grom, and other beasts, that’s how their own world shaped them. If they’re attacked they will fight back and attempt to take down any opponent that goes against them. They have a warrior culture. They take pride in causing a blood bath.
So instead of writing it down as vile act on orcs, it was far more grey than that. Both sides committed wrongs which ended in terrible escalation.
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Nobody, really nobody except the Nightelves see chopping trees as “murderous rampage”, and if you attack someone without warning, you can expect to be attacked back, especially when it’s orcs.
I called Cenarius demise “suicide by Orc” in another thread, and i relly think it’s a fitting description.
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Someday I’ll be just like Daddy Grom 
Maybe without the demon blood influence, but overall this is a picture of glory. All what you described before means literally nothing if no one who came from EK had a clue about the rules of the Kaldorei. So ofc you’ll defend yourself and kill the lads which come to attack you and if you’ve bad luck it’ll be an orc and he’ll enjoy the bloodbath which is incoming.
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Calevarn i now realize you never wanted nor ever will understand anything of what i say and i already put too much time into feeding trolls. Believe whatever you want to and if you think a temple and a forest are the same and greeting people with arrows to the knee is ok then thats fine by me. I mean why am i even upset at the end the Orcs won so it´s cool by me.
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And kept going once they discovered it was inhabited, turning it into an actual invasion where they conquered territory that to this day they still occupy in-game.
Trying to have Grommash’s actions pass as a simple lumber gathering stroll in someone else’s woods where he was unjustly harassed is what’s disingenuous here
Or leave at the first signs of natives instead? The arrows they were welcomed with were a message.
You’re not welcome here, go away. What do you mean they had no choice but to invade deeper and cause more destruction?
The Elves defended their homeland, ruthlessly yes, but they can’t be faulted. They decide how to defend themselves and the Orcs had no right to despoil Kaldorei territory of lumber.
Yes…because they were under demom influence. Their skin is green, they drank the Blood of Mannoroth on Draenor, and as per lore, Mannoroth being so close to the Orcs reignited that fury to an extent.
What’s morally grey about defending your territory from someone who openly admits that he plans to disfigure it?
No, seriously, do enlighten me.
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Ignorance is not a justification for either slaughter or pillaging.
And I’m sorry to burst that bubble again, but an invasion on foreign territory is not self-defense.
Self-defense expired at the first attack, on Night Elven land. Then it turned into Grommash razing down entire encampments and driving himself further within Kaldorei territory with each killing.
I mean sure, it’s Orc culture, I get that, Grommash is a conqueror not a slave (
) . But how in this thread we find the energy to villainise his victims and exempt him from guilt is something astounding.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Grommash_Hellscream#/media/File:Grom_Glowei.jpg
Ah yes, “just chopping trees”
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You do seem to show some double standards here.
Having these sort of statements regarding NE claims/rights regarding Orc actions:
And yet, when its about Humans entering forest troll territory and actively killing them:
I mean, lets keep it consistent at least.
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Re-read the quote.
Can you bring me a quote saying that the humans were taken by the Vrykul on Troll territory they trespassed on?
Because if not, the Trolls were the aggressive ones, attacking on a people outside their borders.
In the same thread, which you conveniently didn’t quote, I made an example related to Ashenvale. Because I absolutely knew you would do this, Zarao:
Page 126 of the Chronicles book states that humans knew that the forests they populated were inhabited by trolls and other threats.
And in page 127 we have quite a description regarding how Ignaeus earned his Trollbane title.
In short, it was because he ventured deep into troll territory, way beyond human-controlled land, and killed any troll they found.
If orcs were the aggressive ones for doing the above, certainly the same would apply for humans. As they indeed did the same during and at the end of the troll wars.
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Can you bring a direct quote? Because the wowpedia is disagreeing with you there.
“Despite the risks however, not all parents obeyed this order and instead hid their children to grow up far away from Northrend. Legends say it was Tyr, one of the Keepers, who brought the humans to their new home, though the vrykul actually sent their offspring there because it was the location of Tyr’s tomb. Regardless, his legend and symbol would haunt and inspire the humans forever after.”
I can’t read anything about it being Troll land.
And yep, that’s pretty gruesome, I agree.
Indeed, it would, if your sources are right, I stand corrected and I agree that the Trolls were in the right in defending their lands in any way they saw fit.
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How they could determine that the forest was inhabitated when there were no structures there no sign of inhabitation, just forrest full of trees, they went there to chop it because they needed resources and they were attacked, once they were attacked they counter attacked.
But you frame it as attempt of conquest from get go. Orcs didn’t fight Darkspers and tauren when they met them because they decided to speak first.
Orcs are literally aliens from other planet they had right to not know ll of that, but them being warriors and fighting back is what they’re. They’re brutal and violent but they can be reasonable too.
What I called disingenous is the claim that orcs went there in purpose to cause blood bath. But they didn’t they didn’t know that it was inhabitated, they didn’t scout the area unlike helves did, they went for wood and were attacked.
I do agree that they did a lot of wrongs afterwards. Heck even after rewatching the footage, I see that the first settlement that they met in the forest was not belonging to nelves but dark trolls and they immediately assaulted it even if they were sleeping at the time.
They kept on gathering the lumbers while being under constant assault from nelves.
bottom line is that both sides committed wrongs. Even if I believe every race is entilted to defend their territories a lot of bloodshed could’ve been avoided.
I agree that they had no rights to despoil the land which was belonging to someone else, I am just arguing that previously they didn’t have idea that it belonged to someone, therefore, they couldn’t be set on ruthless conquest from a get go if they just wanted to get wood. Even Grom was lamenting on why"sending finest warriors for such a menial tasks" and they took it as assault on them from rogue faction which immediately went on “slay them all”.
I agree that there is nothing wrong in defending territory. What I call morally grey is that orcs ventured to someone else’s land being absolutely unaware that it was someone’s territory. They didn’t go there with intend to lay havoc as you implied, they went for lumber and got themselves caught in the conflict.
It does mirror Amani and elves conflict, I likewise don’t think that Amani did wrong for fighting for their territory, but the elves on purpose went to get Amani land and for resources while being completely aware of it being in posession of somebody else.
Orcs could’ve retreat after getting enough lumber for their structures, orcs didn’t like this forest they said it was spooky and wanted to get back to Thrall immediately. They were not set on conquest and causing bloodshed for shizz and giggles.
This is where the difference is. And mind you I was on nelf side when Horde launched massive campaign in Cataclysm and in WoT.
I liked Ashenvale the best the way it was in vanilla. So primarly belonging to nelves, with small Horde presence to get lumber + fishing / research camp at the beach.
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Page 126: Humans knew those forests were inhabited by trolls when they first started expanding.
Groups of hunter-gatherer humans proliferated throughout the forests and hillocks of the continent.
Despite the existence of Amani trolls, High elves, and other threats, humanity’s greatest adversary proved to be itself. The early tribes constantly warred one another for land and, by extension, power.
Page 127: Humans ventured into Troll territory to kill as many as they could when they had already established their proper kingdom.
Thought considered uncouth and savage by many of the humans from other regions, Ignaeus and his northlanders were unmatched in their bravery and strenght. They stalked well beyond Arathor’s borders, slaughtering any trolls whome they found skulking in the woodlands. Ignaeus would garner the name “Trollbane” for the amount of Amani blood he spilled
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What do you mean no signs of habitation, or unaware that it wasn’t inhabited?
The Warsong literally heard the Night Elves talking from their camp, but dismissed it as “it’s just ghosts and shadows”. The signs of civilisation were there, the Orcs were simply either too superstitious or too careless to actually acknowledge it.
And this argument doesn’t work anyway, because the moment they had definite proof of native presence, they decided to go ahead, kill them all and take their land and lumber in true Warsong style.
I agree, no-one could ever be wrong in my book for defending their territory from invaders.
Uhm, this doesn’t say it was their land. It even mentions that High Elves were present too, does that mean it was both High Elven and Troll land?
It sounds rather odd, but sure, I’ll concede.
Yikes, go get him, Trolls.
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