Vanish x 2

[Volcâno-twisting-nether]

because sub is intented to build on PvP spec. In PvE and Raids Sub looking good on Single targets but it s not . Shadowdance only the period of time to do damage. If you got a debuff , targetted by aoe thing or soak traps in emergency / carry out seeds etc , spec is wasted.

And Sin should be the best Single Target spec. If not why they are keeping Vendetta? Not to mention toxic blade which baked into our enrage remover shiv. I m telling , blizz give me 1 day i would fix the whole damn spec . They are not doing intently. I don’t mind tho, my sub ends in 17 february and will not return unless they fix the spec. May be i ll play to Path of Exile.

[Kolossi-veknilash]

I still distinctly remember, the show that for example Legion pvp was.
You could get a perfect opener on someone, Burn just about everything that you got, when it came to Burst abilities, fight for a bit and drop, the enemy to 7% hp, then you mess up once!.

(oops NO more CC, thanks to pruning, and those that you had, are on CD’s)

And the enemy is back at full hp with one click of a button, (if they were a healer).

Getting outplayed by one click… Balanced, GG’s, oh and apparently Oom is not a thing either.

druids were even worse, with their gigantic egos.

You had the basic, and, /Rofl, spit, shoo, insults thrown at your face, when those tanks or healers, realized that it took about 2-3 players to down them, sometimes they just stood there / yawning…

Then they had the Cheek / gall, to defend that “balance”.
“tanks / healers have to be tough, and can’t be killed by one player, because they need to be able to tank, and heal through raid (pve) damage mechanics”

That kind of entitlement and ego, really had me seeing Crimson.
P.s. sorry for the minor rant.

[Ostara-sporeggar]

@Toxyn-azjolnerub

to take full advantage of empowered garrotes, in the same way Sub has two charges of Shadowstep.

And what do the 2 charges of shadowstep help you take advantage of?
It sounded like you were on to something for a minute there but then you lost me

Maybe you meant 2 charges of dance, but that’s through a talent

[Toxyn-azjolnerub]

@Ostara-sporeggar

And what do the 2 charges of shadowstep help you take advantage of?

See below.

@Toxyn-azjolnerub

Sub has always been the high mobility spec.

[Ostara-sporeggar]

Okey but mobility is not the same as damage with the ‘empowered garrotes’ argument

I’d rather see garrote not have a cooldown at all, and be empowered some other way, say tick 30% faster after using crimson tempest or somrthing

[Toxyn-azjolnerub]

Being highly mobile means there’s less downtime and being out of combat with your target, which has a direct correlation with damage output.

All parses factor in the percent at which you were ‘active’. A slow effect on me (Sin) with my single Shadowstep on CD will have much more of an impact than on a Sub which has multiple ‘teleports’ and ways to minimise non-activity.

Going back to the empowered Garrotes point, I would like any dots to do the most amount of damage before they drop off during those periods of inevitable inactivity on my primary target.

[Ostara-sporeggar]

@Toxyn-azjolnerub

Being highly mobile means there’s less downtime and being out of combat with your target, which has a direct correlation with damage output.

True, but sin does more damage than sub in inactive periods, because of it having more dots which do not require the same uptime on target as is the case with sub (and especially with how most of subs damage is during dance)
So the argument would be that it sin has less mobility because it needs less mobility to do the same damage, tuning notwithstanding.

Now if it’s about doing more damage with bleeds and poisons i completely agree, sin should not be the spec of big numbers, muti and envenom should be fillers when it comes to damage, ways to not overcap energy or cp

I do not think that this could be achieved with having 2 vanishes though. Vanish is in essence a defensive, and i do not think the risk of using it offensively should be lowered, especially from a pvp standpoint

[Toxyn-azjolnerub]

@Ostara-sporeggar

Vanish is in essence a defensive

This is true of the other specs, but not so for Assassination if talented into Subterfuge, as it should always be used as part of your offensive damage rotation, hence why I would like to see two charges of it.

Also Sub is more effective on ST under all conditions, there is plenty of evidence to support this, and I have tested it myself on dummies and M+ with the same gear, and I can confirm this to be true.

[Volcâno-twisting-nether]

Fellow Rogues Sin spec requires less time gate on ramping. Overall spec will not be fixed until they sit their aasseess and look intently ( which will never happened ) . Like i said , Sin heavly tending both conjuction of Relentless Strikes + Cut to the Chase ( if SnD introduced ).

I m currently playing on Cata Private server with full BiS Rogue , just putted myself test without playing Relentless Strikes talents ( %20 chance to per combo point take back 25 energy ). The result was amazed me. Same weakness in Retail. But but but Cata auto damage envenoms and insta poison is really good which Sin rogue currently suffers from Poison dmg and can not execute envenoms.

All and all spec is faulty. And it is blizz fault. Can’t be fixed by High Haste or %dmg buffs. Regards.

[Ostara-sporeggar]

@Toxyn-azjolnerub

This is true of the other specs, but not so for Assassination if talented into Subterfuge

But the same can be said about sub as well, if you talent into subterfuge vanish becomes a dps cd, as you can do two extra shadowstrikes. Granted it ends up as less than it is for sin, but it’s a damage increase nonetheless.

Sub is better on st now, indeed, but that’s because of tuning. Sin has many mechanical issues, but not having 2 charges of vanish is not one of them. Sure it would be a damage bump with subterfuge, especially on cleave, but it still will not fix the spec.

Consider pvp where 2 vanishes mean 2 free resets. It’s almost like saying palas should have 2 charges on divine shield. Even divine shield can be ised as a dps cd, you just stand in the fire when you’re supposed to move out, and do damage.

[Kolossi-veknilash]

@Ostara-sporeggar

Sure it would be a damage bump with subterfuge, especially on cleave, but it still will not fix the spec.

The only fix that Mut requires is for the spec to go back, to bigger numbers on demand, like it used to be, instead of the sad and piffling, dot class that it has become.

Just like Cincime said:

@Cincime-ravencrest

Also back in the day; drum rollll;
Sub was the bleed spec and Mutilate was the heavy generator-heavy finisher spec!

First iteration of mutilate hit like a truck.

One they they just swapped how both specs worked.

Guess they ran out of ideas and copy pasted codes to one another and told us everything was “New”

[Ostara-sporeggar]

Yeah i know how it used to be, i’d just be happy if the specs were different now. I don’t think rogues in general would benefit from having two specs that play exactly the same, so having sin as the ‘big number’ spec is not the way to go in my book, if sub stays the same.

Far easier just to make sin the rot spec, but like for real, put bleeds and poisons, vanish, see the target actually take damage and not just midly annoyed.