War of the Thorns inconsistency

Hi, during the War of the Thorns there was a lot of Lore mistakes, in the story. I want to talk about it.

1). Souls.
According to the book, all Night Elves that were killed by the Horde, were transforming into wisps, and then they continue to fight after.
But later it turns out, that the Horde managed to rise soulless Night Elves as forsaken. But that’s impossible, because according to the Lore, forsaken has souls in their bodies. Also later in Interview, Blizzard had told us that all Night Elves souls are in the Mow, like everyone else who was killed during that war.
Inconsistency!

2). Elune.
During the War of the Thorns story, Elune was helping Tyrande. Elune have send Tyrande an vision, and she managed to find and save Malfurion. Also Elune gave some powers to defeat Saurfang.
Later Elune also gave the powers of the Dark Moon to Tyrande, and with those powers Tyrande managed to kick the Horde out from her lands. And thats without a help of the Alliance. But now in 8.3. Tyrande says that Elune have abandon Night Elves, and she wants to find out why…
Inconsistency!

3). Druids.
Night Elves druids, are most strongest rulers of the Nature powers, the powers of the Nature realm. They can use such nature things as wind, storm, rain, and sometimes even fire. In the War of the Thorns druids have summon the wind, to make ships travel faster.
But when the burning of Teldrassil started, all the druids have suddenly forgot their abilities. They did not summon the rain to stop the fire, or something. The world most strongest nature users have been killed by such ordinary for nature thing as fire.
Inconsistency!

4). Catapults.
According to the Lore, when Archimond was defeated during War 3, he has blowup with fire, but this big fire napalm bomb was not enough to put a World Tree on fire.
According to the Lore, Teldrassil is even a bigger World Tree. While Horde catapult shots are pretty small. Imagine trying to put on fire a tree by trowing a sparks on to it. How long will it take if its possible at all? But Horde managed to burn down a World Tree with a size of the island, with a rivers and mountains on it, pretty damn fast.
Also when a catapult shoots, the shots must fall down to the ground later, at the big distance. Teldrassil is an island, and you have to use a ships to travel to the continent. In other words Horde catapults must be some cross continental weapon. If it’s possible at all, catapults shoots had to fell in to the bottom of the World Tree. But they actually was shooting it to the sky, and the burning of the World Tree have started from the top.
So Hordes catapults are not only cross continental, but also a space defense weapon, that can take down space ships…
Inconsistency!

5). Shamans.
During the War of the Thorns, Horde shamans managed to use the fire against Night Elves fleet. The fire was walking across the water! I’m not saying that it’s impossible, but if it is possible, why Horde did not use shamans to destroy Alliance fleets before, in Cata, in War 2, in BfA later???
Also it’s told that Teldrassil have burned so fast, because shamans managed to control the fire, to spread it faster. Really? Shamans forced fire-spirits to kill civilians, and they did not get any consequences, like Thrall did?
Anyway, if Shamans are so powerful, why in the hell Horde needed Dragons for in War 2? Why shamans did not burn down Alliance cities before? Why they did not use such powers against the Lich King and e.t.c?
Inconsistency!

6). Night Elves.
What kind of forces do Night Elves have? Hippogryph riders are patrolling the sky over the forests - they just disappeared during the war book.
Nighsabers patrolling the roads - disappeared .
Dryads are living the Ashenvale, helping Night Elves to guard it - disappeared.
Half of the Night Elves race are druids, with different schools - only a couple of cat druids were present.
The border is guarded by an ARMY of Silverwing Sentinels - an army was killed by a couple of rogues it seams, because that army disappeared.
Night Elves have Elune priestess, which use Elune powers to fight - priestess were mentioned as non fighters.
Night Elves Glaive throwers are used as a seage weapon - disappeared.
Night Elves also have a friends like treants, half gods, and different kind of animals - disappeared.
In other words, more than a half of those who Horde should met there, were just disappeared. Yes, Night Elves have sent their army to Silithus, but how about treants that are too big for a ships? Or Glaive throwers - Night Elves have used cannons on the ships, not Glaive throwers!!!
Inconsistency!

7). Alliance.
There are 3 Alliance race that are living in the Kalimdor. All 3 of those race were fighting against the Horde during the war against the Garrosh. But in the War of the Thorns, only Night Elves are taking actions. Other Alliance soldiers - disappeared.
Also during the siege of the Lordaeron, Void Elves have shown us, that they can open portals anywhere they want. Why they didn’t had such abilities during The War of the Thorns?
Inconsistency!

What I wanted to point out is, that there are a lot of Lore mistakes in all that story. The burning of the Teldrassil seams to be illogical. It seams that Blizzard just use Night Elves as punching bags, to create a hype over the new addon. They decided to burn down Teldrassil long before they decided how the War of the Thorns will go. They just needed to burn down a lot of civilians, to make this war as - Blood War.

btw, according to the Lore, Night Elves managed to build Darnassus in about ~ 4 Azeroth years. It’s about 1 game addon.
So, if Night Elves will not going to have a new Capital City after Shadowlands, it will be another Lore writers mistake!!! :smiling_imp:

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… and they should have stuck with that! Made sense and a “nicer consolation” than being turned into an Undead Mark II or somethin’

Maybe because the devs want to broker Elune to some other race. They stole so many unique Night Elf features and passed them along. So wouldn’t surprise me a bit.

(I just read Blizz’ post “Death Knights for all races”. That’s another lore sell-out)

Leave alone the fact that they can heal and fly. Teldrassil burning. Just take off to the skies. And for the non-druids, the hippogryphs might have been sufficient in numbers to carry them off. Leave alone the portals opened by their mages.

Had lore been consistent, Sylvanas would have wished never to have set foot in Darkshore. Because of Nature’s full force crushing their attempt to do serious harm. Not to mention Elune.

The whole Darkshore episode is utter nonsense. The catapults would have done squat. If ever you play that zone you have a good feeling of the sheer distance. Had Blizzards’ devs any brains, they would have at least invented an armada of Goblin gunboats with huge canons loaded with azerite jumping a surprise attack on Teldrassil. But no, all they could think of were catapults. Just shows you their level of ingenuity!

This needs for the surface to have a coat of oil. If you are aware of the huge waters between Teldrassil and Darkshore (it’s called Veiled SEA , remember? :grin: )

This!

?

Just the Draenei really and they were always attached to Stormwind. However, considering that the Temple of Elune has a portal to the Exodar, it is ludicrous that the refugees did not use this but rather burnt in the flames.

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Some people really don’t like us Draenei :sweat_smile:

You got super spacecraft :slight_smile: what is not to like? ^^

The main inconsistency is really just the fact that the Alliance did not use the Vindicaar to teleport their armies across the sea, which would have instantly won them the war, as the Horde plan relied entirely on crushing the night elves before Alliance reinforcements arrived.

The catapults would have fired Vindicaar down from the orbit way too easily, not worth the risk!

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I like to think those catapults can even hit things in alternate realities.

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Mooney you get a 10/4 from me for the best joke so far on this thread.

Indeed, with Blizzard everything is possible. Wooden catapults taking down the Vindicaar. Yeah, right! :face_with_raised_eyebrow: :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

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Only those night elves that agreed to the bargain of the Val’kyr changed to risen night elves. They need consent. Those that did not consent turned into wisps and attacked the Horde hero.

The only inconsistency here is indeed that Blizzard established night elves turning to wisps upon death (which Darkshore is full of + we bless corpses in Astranaar that turn into wisps). Yet Blizzard claims all the victims of Teldrassil went to the Maw. Might be an inconsistency, might just be because they weren’t blessed/didn’t get their rites. We’ll see in SL, I guess, but I expect a dumb retcon.

Elune didn’t help the night elves before the Burning of Teldrassil beyond some painless death prayers. That’s what she wants answers for. No inconsistency here.

The fire was fanned by shaman of the Horde & was also Azerite fire. It was no natural fire. No inconsistency.

Again, not normal fire. I agree that the range of the catapults was quite weird.

The element of fire, especially on Azeroth, is a particularly chaotic and “evil” one. Reminder Ragnaros was the ruler of the Firelands. I agree that there should be conflict for the shaman later on, though, especially Orc shamans considering their history of genocide and remorse. But not sure if Fire would be particularly bothered. Not necessarily an inconsistency.

The bulk of the Night Elf fleet was sent south to Silithus as the only Alliance army that could respond to the Horde trying to seize the Azerite for their superweapons. Sylvanas baited them down there and Blitzkrieg’d their homeland with a first wave of rogues and the entire Horde army while they only had a small garrison.

Blame SI:7 and Mathias Shaw for feeding the Alliance leadership wrong information & Tyrande for actually trusting the Alliance.

The draenei were severely decimated during Legion and their invasion of Argus (the homeworld of the Legion). Their help falls flat, though they did take on refugees (mission board lore). The Gilneans and Nelves are on their own (both were shown).

Overall, you didn’t research much before criticising.

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You’re making an assumption there. Night Elves are raised (and -that- should be the contentious issue, no -how- they are raised), and you see how during the quests. When you do so, you quite often get attacked by angry Wisps, who you batter into acquiescence/smack them about till they ‘die’ . The Night Elves who are risen quite blatantly -do- have all the anima of their soul, their memories and all that comes with it, as is referenced in the quest with Tyrande, when you confront Nathanos.

Its called a crisis of faith. It is a story as old as mankind. Tyrande believed for thousands of years, but when the Kaldorei -really- needed Elune, where was She? Nowhere. Faith does not demand proof. If Elune turned up every time things went bad, she would not be a Goddess, just a mega super buddy. Faith is trust and belief without proof. If you need Proof, you never really had Faith.
That simple. Ask a Nun or a Priest why some good people get cancer and some criminals live long and healthy lives. Religion does not always play by hard and fast rules that make sense…

You know what that fire is based on, right? Naptha and Greek Fire. Famous for the fact that they would continue burning on and in water. Sort of Napalm (In fact the very word Napalm is derived from Naptha). It could rain all it liked, that fire would not be put out…

It was also a rotten, corrupt place. Work had been done to start healing it but it was created with bad intentions, fostered with bad intentions, and was so skeevy that Nozdormu went “Nope” rather than give his blessing.

Now, as to the Catapults, you are in ‘luck’ here. I live very close to the biggest functioning Trebuchet in the entire world. (I legit do, I live in Warwick). Kalimdor to Teldrassil? WIth burning Pitch? With Shamans? Yeah. That’s no bother at all. I mean you don’t even need the Shamans, you could nail that tree just with standard Demolishers (Which are bigger than real world Trebuchets in general were)

Cross Continental does not mean “Across a small sea”. England and Ireland are separated by the sea, but they are not different continents, as are England and France. Demolishers are not Inter Continental weapons, nor have they been shown to be in game.

You know that is how a Trebuchet works, right? It is called ‘Indirect Fire’ as in you lob the missile in an arc, and -depend- upon it landing where you want it to, rather than ‘direct fire’ where you point the weapon at the target and shoot. I mean right there, that is the essence of why Artillery is still useful in todays Wars.

Where did Space Ships come into that example you gave? They were never mentioned, but sure, lets go with that. Ermm…No? They’re not anti aircraft batteries. I mean if you fired a Trebuchet and an enemy flier was unlucky enough to be in the missile’s trajectory at that exact time, then heck, yes, that is one unlucky son of a female canine.

Air defence weaponry is by definition smaller and quicker to reload/use than the Big Artillery pieces. Why? Because it can do the maximum bang for your buck whilst being small, but also because it can be aimed and fired quickly enough. If you see enemy air forces coming in, and try to use a Trebuchet, then you are a blithering idiot who would be better lying down and dying and becoming a meat sand bag to defend your position. You -don’t- use Catapults or Siege engines to take down aerial threats! That is absolutely mental. By the time you have loaded it, wound it on, and assuming you can actually manouever it, aimed, and fired, that aerial threat will have done its job a few minutes ago, and be on their way home for tea and medals…

Presumably the sort that were countered by the Horde Aerial Forces therefore not able to form that much of an impact on the ground war…You know…the way Wars work.

Or killed. Or re-tasked to Silithus, or held in reserve. Or maybe because there were like six of them and so wouldn’t even be a speedbump to an advancing Horde Army.

No they’re not. That is absolutely false. Half of the Night Elves are not Druids, never have been, and likely never will be.

-WAS-, until they were decoyed away to intervene in Silithis. What we do see is reservist soldiers and rookies training, who are the ones that the character and Lorash Sunbeam take out. 7,000 year old Blood Elf Assassin and the player character against a group of rookie Sentinels who are learning which end of the sword to use? Yeah, seems fair to be honest.

And what?

I mean that. “And What?” The Horde have Priests who believe in the Loa, and Wild Gods, They have SHamans, they ha- in fact, yeah, ‘And what’? WHat does the Night Elf religious belief give them at all?

That, frankly, is the Night Elves own fault for building a direct fire artillery piece that is useless in a forest environment. I mean that kind of artillery is absolutely useless in built up areas, whether urban or rural, as history teaches us.

Yeeeeeaaaahhhh. It is amazing how Blizzard do that. “Hey the good guys have loads of cool super friends!, the stinky bad guys don’t! Yaaay!” “Oh, umm, the stinky bad guys are attacking the good guys, umm, damn…right, so ehh, we wrote the background whilst drunk and on a Tolkien binge…how do we sort this out?”
“Maybe the other ‘Good’ things just nope their way out of it? I mean it was always overpowered and unbalancing anyway?”

No.

Treants can perfectly fit on a ship, they’re not much different in size from a Tauren or Draenai. I think you mean Ancients. You know they are not Alliance Shock Troops, right? But entities with their own agenda who are not actually -part- of the Alliance. The instant the Kaldorei try to order them to do things is when they likely get a big middle finger the size of a conifer flipped their way.

Two.

Kaldorei, who are the ones attacked in a Lightning fast invasion, and the Draenai. Who are really good at seeing the future, except when it would be useful to see the future…

Yeah, in lore there are also like…twenty of them? Fifty at most. People going through those portals who are not them have a fair chance of coming out the other end as a drooling insane liability that needs putting down…

Yes. Because a Corrupt Kaldorei Druid decided he knew better than mother nature, and did so.

It is a classic story of Hubris. Most Druids -hated- Teldrassil, because it was one person -forcing- their Will upon the planet. That’s…not a cool vibe…Teldrassil? Darnassus? Yeah, that’s…not cool…

“continuity exists to enhance a story, not to tie the hands of creators” © Blizzard

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I just have to burst that bubble of yours mate. Too tempting!^^

Courtesy of quoka/com and punkinchunkin/com…
quote:
With modern mechanical torsion catapults, the world record for is currently held (as of 2019) by the “Chucky III”, which slung a 8-10 lb (4 kg) pumpkin 3,636 ft (1.1 km) in 2011. This catapult used a twisted skein of rope, similar in design to a Roman onager. In ancient times the top ranges were 1500 feet for a 8 pound stone.
The largest medieval trebuchets, with throwing arms 50 feet in length and ~20,000 lbs counterweight could throw stones 200-300 lbs to a distance of about 1000 feet.
unquote.

The veiled sea even at its most narrow is wider than that. Furthermore, if catapults aim at the tree itself the distance almost doubles and that is just targeting the lower third of that tree where (if you know trees, you know that) the trunk is thickest. Blizzard was pulling the catapult attack out of their arses as it is the most illogical BS they’ve delivered in the long run. An armada of Goblin gunboats with oversized canons might, just might have inflicted some damage to the tree. But burn it completely? This is an absolute farce!

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Might want to get onto the Guinness book of records then, as the Trebuchet in Warwick Castle managed to fire a ball of burning pitch considerably further than that, as in, outside the castle environs (Technically I suppose, the first time the British Isles have came under Artillery fire for more than a century…) and set fire to a 12th century boathouse. Embarrassing…Listed Building fires and burns down another listed building…

I’m guessing that ‘Chucky III’ is an American invention?

As such, they haven’t got a clue, and their country is synonymous with being untruthful right now, so I will take that with a hefty pinch of salt.

North Kalimdor to a corrupted Tree, with shamans backing you?

Totally possible.

Absolutely possible.

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I don’t want to step on your patriotic toes mate - no offense intended here - but even that acclaimed trebuchet of yours could NOT bridge the vast distance (even at its most narrow). Blizzards’ attempt to sell catapults vs. destruction of Teldrassil is an insult to intelligence.

Had they been just a teensy weensy bit original they would have, for example, sent Goblin zeppelins and gunboats from either Zoram Strand or from Shatterspear War Camp with over-sized canons to deliver rapid-fire non-stop for hours.

I mean Blizzard was selling Nathanos as a prophet (having been able to find a path into Darkshore that the indigenous Nelves never heard of), so why not “invent” some c&b to start from these points on the map? The Horde would have attacked Teldrassil’s blind spot (although even at the rear (bottom of that tree trunk) there are some sentinels) at close range. Connecting that with the “power of Azerite” it would have been a more credible sale than this catapult BS. The sea is simply too wide at its most narrow. With respect, not even the miracle-of-Warwick could have bridge that distance.

Careful here mate, you know what they say about people sitting in a glass house?^^

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Just a small note here. The world tree hasn’t been corrupted since Cataclysm. It was even blessed by Ysera and Alextrasza at one point.

I doubt most druids still disliked the World Tree Teldrassil.

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In fairness, with solid shot it does have about that range, the burning pitch it (used to use ) is lighter and goes further. Quite a bit further than sometimes expected, which is why they no longer fire Pitch. It exceeded their expectations of distance and set a 12th century boathouse on fire elsewhere in Warwick. Thankfully no one was harmed, though the reason I remember it clearly (Aside from there being a medieval WMD near my house) was the article in the local press, which concluded with “Fire Investigations experts are examining the wreckage for what caused the blaze”

Ermm…

Might have been the ball of blazing pitch fired at it?

That’s pretty much what I am basing that theory off, burning shot is lighter than solid shot. Even assuming we’re talking barrels of liquid firey death, they would still be lighter than solid shot. Add magic into the mix and ehh…possible. unlikely, I 'll grant you, but possible.

Ehh, I don’t think the UK (apart from its politicians, but that is like saying that water is wet) is particularly mendacious at the moment, more that we seem to have declared that we are carrying out some economic and political suicide pact!

That’s true, I remember, that’s the bit I was thinking of, Ysera and Alextrasza are cool with it, but Nozdormu is like “Cool tree, I’m still not making you immortal again”

I don’t think the Druids would still -dislike- it, but given how recent it was, I just don’t see it being in as high regard as say, Nordrassil, that plus its teething troubles when created, for example the Grell being a symptom of this, and well, -who- created it, I doubt it would be an especially ‘sacred’ place to the Night Elves as some claim.

The horror and outrage is more likely to have been at the massive death toll and destruction of a city, not the actual tree itself. But that, to be fair, is just my take on it.

Although, something that has always troubled me about the Night Elves. They speak Darnassian, right? But Darnassus has only existed for a very short time. There is no other reference to Darnassus meaning anything in their language, so either the language came first, and they named the city after it, or they just renamed their language in the last few decades. Just one of those silly things that bugs me…

Well, you need to take into consideration that it also housed the largest (at that point active) Temple of Elune that we know of, as wel as the fact that it was home to thousands of creatures and other life forms.
I’m on board with the idea that it wasn’t regarded like Nordrassil, but the fact that Nozdormu didn’t want to bless it doesn’t really make it a failure.

It was at the start, but that was definitely rectified.

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They didn’t really care about logic when they wanted to make the night elves extinct

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Probably not so much a case of being sacred literally speaking. But the concept of home can be “sacred” to people, too. And Teldrassil was home to people and creatures alike :smiley:

Doubly so since the novels accompanying the whole thing establish the canonical range for these catapults.

It’s “a couple hundred” yards. It wouldn’t even work out with ingame scale.

I don’t know how this can even be argued anymore.