Genn went to war with the hordes warchief during Legion and gave Sylvy a valid Casus Belli against the Alliance and the perfect argument to motivate Saurfang to plan the war.
So, yeah, there surely was a ceasefire during Before the Storm, but there also was one during Legion. A ceasefire Genn broke. So why should this one hold?
Sadly Blizz didn’t hold in to this and made it all about comic book villain Sylvy.
Also Anduin did mention Daelin in a private conversation with Saurfang to motivate him to siege Orgrimmar. Nobody else heard this. Anduin played Saurfang. As he does since he released him from prison. As Sylvanas did to plan the war. Anduin actually did a great job for once. This deed earned him the leadership of the Alliance. Before that he was a spoiled kid who got everything because he is his fathers son. He lost Darnassus, he lost in Lorderon. He is a terrible Commander and tactician but a good Diplomat, manipulator and plotter.
Genn had a legitimate grievance for wanting to go against Sylvanas. the Attack was wrong and unwarranted sure, but it wasn’t unjustified. But you gotta also keep in mind that at the time, the Alliance had just lost Varian to the hands of the Legion. And they thought that the Horde had betrayed them and left them to die, which led Varian to sacrifice himself.
Genn was the most upset by this as he’s the last person to speak with Varian before he sacrificed himself, and he fully blamed the Horde and Sylvanas, because he has every reason to distrust them. The Horde also did not send any messengers to clear out what had happened.
And how many ceasefires have the Horde broken? I mean most recently in WoD both factions were under a truce, and yet the Horde broke it when the Alliance dug an artifact in Ashran. Meanwhile the Legion one broke because the Alliance thought the Horde betrayed them.
The post-Legion ceasefire wasn’t broken because of Genn. It was because Sylvanas wanted all the Azerite to herself and didn’t want to share. Using Genn and “some generations from now the Alliance will attack us” hyperbole.
The thing is as much as I want to believe this. I know Anduin is probably too pure to manipulate even a fly. I mean he is regarded as being very naive by few characters.
Like in Lordaeron he was gullible and allowed Sylvanas to get close enough to him to unleash her power and escape, after demanding her to surrender or die. And it was pretty obvious she wasn’t gonna surrender and that she had a plan under her sleeve, since she was mocking him.
To be honest during that whole conversation Anduin wasn’t making much sense, like when he compared Arthas to the Old Horde.
Sure, what Arthas did was horrific, but I fail to see how his actions can be blamed on the Alliance. The only atrocity which soldiers from within the Alliance willingly took part in was the culling of Stratholme, which was carried out exclusively by Lordaeron’s army, and didn’t involve the Alliance’s wider forces. It’s a massive stretch to blame the unilateral action of Lordaeron’s army against their own people on the Alliance. This rings especially true when you consider that, whilst we know that there are some refugees from Lordaeron still within the Alliance, the vast majority of its population ultimately became the Forsaken.
Other than that, the atrocities carried out by Arthas were done using the Scourge, who, unlike the Orcs of the Old Horde, had literally no free will of their own. Things like the attempted genocide of the Draenei and sack of Quel’thelas may be comparable as actions, but ultimately the Old Horde had something the Scourge never did: A choice.
The blame for Arthas’ actions falls solely on his own shoulders - The Alliance had nothing to do with it. But then again this is Anduin we’re talking about - Thinking things through has never exactly been his forte.
Actually this world would fall to the Burning Legion if not thanks to the Horde so yeah… Daelin could not save it. Horde united creepy races like Taurens, Trolls and Goblins - Alliance alone would lost in any WoW expansion with universe type of conflict.
Was he right about political conflict? Probably… Untill you wipe your enemy from face of earth there will always be some conflict. There plenty of proofs in real life history - My country saved one country to be invaded by it X years later
Burning legion sent old Horde to soften the Alliance cause it was a problem for it.
I don’t deny that Thrall and old Grom have managed to free their people and that’s one of my personal favourite parts of the lore. Same as good old Sylvanas rebellion and forsaken original story.
But don’t simplify things to the point it’s just making wrong impression, pls.
Burning Legion never lost to anyone in countless years of conquering planet after planet. Maybe they did send orcs for fun to soften Azeroth forces but they did opposite in reality - orcs revolted and made Azeroth stronger than ever. Constant war between Alliance and Horde trained both sides and only united they were able to save the world.
Only thanks to Thrall and old Grom. It could have been a completely different story if not for our most popular green J
I mean human alliance is left with 1 kingdom out of 7 at the start of Vanilla.
Countless dead, turned undead, mutual infighting, defias rebellion, etc.
And even currently sending the last troops to die, only farmers are off isn’t exactly a BL ready alliance.
If not plot armour human Alliance would be reduced to few towns by the end of WC 3 Frozen Throne.
The orcs were doing quite fine with food at the very least, before the shattering and before the Night Elves cut trade.
Why would the Night Elves or the Alliance for that matter care about the orc’s plight?
Because Garrosh started a war, that is why they should care.
It is not reasonable to cry about a leader who only does what he needs to do to save the innocents he is the leader of.
What should Garrosh have done?
“Oops… sorry guys, looks like you’ll starve and die because the Night Elves won’t share any of their goodies with us due to something a rebel minority in the forsaken did.”
He was quite literally put down immediately when he was made Warchief. Everything was Garrosh’ fault, even though they were not.
One gotta sympathise a little with him.
I just wish blizzard did him some more justice, he had some great moments that they could have built upon, like in the end of Stonetalon.
I’m not saying Genn wasn’t right. I’m just saying he did that. From Genns point of view it surely made sence.
But therefore the Attack on the Alliance in the BFA prequest was not unjustified either. Genn gave Sylvanas the perfect excuse and reason to motivate her people.
Acutally Anuind should have listed Genn alongside with Arthas and Daelin.
It’s kinda sad that every horde faction leader doing something bad instantly has to die or turn comic book evil and every allaince character get forgotten ro a redemption story.
Not saying I want this for the horde. I actually want the alliance become more badass.
There is still a chance Blizz might go this way. This is the way to fix Anduin as right now he is ruinded as a character. While the horde gets comic book villians the Alliance gets fairy tail Princes and Kings.
I see a great chance in the council to fix some horde issues, the Alliance needs some questionable characters to get fixed. Characters with flaws.
Genn also is on his way on redemption and a good boy.
But after Varian died he would have been the perfect High King for the Alliance I think. He es human, so he fits in the mostly human Alliance, he is a seasoned Warrior and Commander. He had this for him going.
He is also old, so easy to kill of as soon as Anduin earned his role as Alliance leader. He surely did that in BFA in winning the war for the Alliance, but everything he did he could have done from the second row as King of Stormwind. I think this would have served better his character development.
Again why should they care about the enemy faction? They’ve been hostile with the Horde since Wrathgate happened. Garrosh was going to start a war regardless of whether his people needed food or not. I mean he was pretty happy with attacking the Alliance as well as attacking the Scourge during Wotlk’s events, remember his argument with Saurfang?
Sure, until you remember that the Horde also attacked an Alliance contingent that was attacking the Scourge in Icecrown at the Broken Front. Leading to both groups’ death . Or that Garrosh attacked Varian at the Ulduar cinematic. Or that at the Argent tournament Garrosh was accusing the Alliance of betrayal because of that Gnome Warlock who summoned Jaraxxus. Which led to Garrosh sending soldiers to attack the Alliance’s soldiers in that same raid. Even in Borean Tundra he wanted to remove the Alliance to open a trade route.
I sympathized with him in TBC when we first saw him and how he was despairing and didn’t even wanna lead the Mag’har because of how ashamed he is. Then in Wotlk he did a full 180 towards being a full warmonger against the Alliance, a faction he only heard stories about.
I also sympathized with him when he Thrall placed the Warchief mantle on him, when he never even wanted it. Then Thrall noped out of Azeroth while everything was gonna be a crapshow for Garrosh.
I agree! I really liked Garrosh in Cata, he’s actually my favorite warchief just because of how he was in Cata. I remember the epic quest in Twilight Highlands too when he does this epic speech and then kills a dragon for stepping on his ship. It’s a shame they changed his character in MoP and made him and made him another moustache twirling villain. With devs saying that Stonetalon was just an “error”
It’s true, from a purely faction specific viewpoint, ever since the victory of the Alliance over the Horde in the Second War, the faction literally hasn’t ‘won’ anything since then when in combat with the Horde, only defeats and stalemates. The only time we emerge ‘victorious’ is when it’s to the benefit of ‘everyone’ whether that be the Horde or other friendly/antogonistic neutral parties.
Warcraft 3 :After the Orcs commit genocide against the Humans, the Horde and the Alliance put a swift stop to Daelin who tries the same against the Orcs.
Wow Classic :Only world ending events are stopped, no ‘Alliance victory’
BC :Same as Classic
WOTLK :Undead commit a sneak attack against the Alliance and Horde, in response Alliance help the Horde invade Undercity and purge their rebellious elements, but don’t even bother rescuing Humans being tortured. So Alliance loses soldiers, helps the Horde retake Undercity then leaves with nothing to show for it. A loss if anything
Cata :The Horde completely steamroll Gilneas and force them to flee to Darnassus. Seeing as the objective was to exterminate the Worgen and capture Gilneas, the Horde still won though not as hard as they intended.
MOP :Horde destroy Theramore, Jaina is talked down from destroying Orgrimmar. Jaina purges Dalaran of the Blood Elves which we learn is a Horde victory because now it means that talks to have the Blood Elves join the Horde, which would result in one less Horde race and one more Alliance race are now ruined. Alliance helps invade Orgrimmar, yet again helping the Horde clean up its own mess and leaves with nothing but a threat, seeking no reparations at all.
WOD :Again, any ‘victory’ the Alliance has helps the Horde just as much. As is a common theme in Wow, the Orcs fail to commit genocide and are promptly absolved of all guilt.
Legion :The Alliance help the Highmountain Tauren and the Nightborne directly who end up joining the Horde, the only Alliance race Horde could be said to help are the Lightforged Draenei on Argus and there is evidence this is only in game and lorewise they had nothing to do with Argus.
BFA :Horde destroy yet another Alliance capital and try to genocide the Night Elves. Alliance try to invade Undercity to capture just ONE person and fail to do that. They only capture Saurfang who didn’t even try to resist arrest and they don’t even claim Undercity as Sylvanas just destroys it. So that’s one victory for the Horde and one stalemate for both.
Then the Alliance attempt to capture King Rastakhan and end up killing him, making the Zandalari officially join the Horde.
The Alliance YET AGAIN help the Horde invade their own city for their own benefit, yet again gaining no reparations.
All in all playing the Alliance is a joyless, pointless experience as Blizzard never allows the faction to officially win against the Horde in any main conflict. They never get commupence and only face defeat after defeat. The worst part is that the Horde does technically lose, the problem? It has to be the Horde that defeats the Horde so Alliance can’t even get a participation trophy or some small victory.
That post downplays a lot of clear alliance victories though.
Also, following that logic you could say that horde also hasn’t gotten any victories but only defeats and stalemates since they defeated daelin.
Another victimhood post.
Garrosh went insane and murdered humans? Let the Green Jesus killsteal, an Alliance character cannot be shown killing an old Horde warchief.
Sylvanas went insane and commited a genocidal act against Night Elves by burning countless little children alive? Let her Mak’Gora with a random zugzug, give her every plotarmor you can think of and meanwhile declare her as the only scapegoat of the Horde’s war crimes. So that Alliance won’t be able to keep fighting the horde because now we have an extremely necessary “armistice” and since Sylvanas who has at least 10 layers of plot armour is the only guilty all Alliance can do now is sucking it all up.
Hehehehehe. We are fair to both factions guuys. We gave the Alliance Mechagnoomes, that is the ultimate proof of how fair we are. Alliance also won the war, they are a bit blighty now but they gloriously defended their lands!
Yea, we never get something out of the wars except constantly getting burned alive and getting killed one way or another and then we make peace, kek.
He is quite innocent of the crimes of his elders, but he was also treated as badly. Can’t blame him for wanting to free all orcs.
The humans here deserved it at this point.
By the way, I am not my avatar, and my moral compas is clearly superior to that US posters… but then again, I am not from the US, that makes it quite easy.
There was a war?
Well, Varian’s intention was certainly not to help the Horde get the Undercity back… Jaina was a lot nicer back then… I loved her back then, when she was a great character.
I mean, the worgen kinda kicked the forsaken’s asses, then when doing the full story from the forsaken point of view the 7th legion were implied to end up coming and that was supposed to make the forsaken retreat, until Sylvanas blackmailed the worgen. Atleast this was somewhat better written than most of WoW’s storylines.
Well, as the Horde have experienced for quite a while now, getting hit with the villain bat tends to have consequences. Jaina in that moment was indeed a villain.
I think the Iron Horde was getting their posteriors handed to them at the end of the day when Yrel decided to go crazy in turn… karma seems to work fine I guess.
Well, everyone worked with Illidan, Velen, Alleria, Tyrande, Turalyon, Vereesa, and many other Alliance heroes throughout. Lightforged draenei also had less of a reason to fight the Horde than the Nightborne had to fight the Alliance. Our characters were not representatives of the factions at the moment they helped the Nightborne, Tyrande was the representative of the Alliance and Liadrin - Rommath were representatives of the Horde. Vereesa and Khadgar were neutral and just happened to be there… for whatever reason. Tyrande is a terrible diplomat, overall an idiot of a character really.
Ehehehe, silly Night Elves living in a tree… get a proper home hippies.
That depends on how you view it, indeed. The initial plan of the Horde assault at the Night Elves were to kill Tyrande and Malfurion, occupy Teldrassil, maintain control of Kalimdor to be the only ones to gather azerite, be a nuclear nation able to just obliterate the Alliance if they disagree and thus create peace through absolute terror. The Horde failed the broadcasted plan… Sylvanas went Sylvanas though. So fail fail.
Yeah, the Alliance are not the smartest of people… such a shame.
To be fair, neither ever got that far! The Horde lost a major character… another major character.
Nah, I feel quite accomplished. My acts allowed the Alliance to dock in Zuldazar and kill Rastahkhan. Total genocide on the Horde is not a story I seek, I would rather not be a villain regardless of the faction I play.
Atleast he saved the lives of Alliance soldiers so that the Alliance did not have to call up farmers next.
Blessed be our lord and saviour, High Overlord Saurfang.
The Gilneas Liberation Front retakes everything up to the Greymane Wall if you play through the Forsaken’s side of it. The only areas of Gilneas still under Forsaken control are Pyrewood Village and Ambermill, which were already cut off from the rest of the country when the wall was put up.
During BfA, the Alliance actually does really well for a change; They manage to reclaim both Stromgarde and the ruins of Lordaeron for the Alliance (One of the Alliance Follower Missions talks about defending their occupation of Lordaeron), they drive the Horde out of Darkshore and win their existing war against the Zandalari, which had been ongoing since Cata, depriving the Horde of their fleet in the process. Up until Azshara turned up, the Horde was getting steamrolled.
In fact, at the end of BfA, the Alliance has control of 5 out of the 7 original human member states: Stormwind, Gilneas, Stromgarde, Kul Tiras and the ruins of Lordaeron, up from only 2 at the start of the xpac. Only Dalaran, which is neutral, and Alterac remain outside its control. I’d hardly call that a loss or a stalemate.
Before I post my opinion, I find BfA lore pretty much self explanatory in itself.
Let’s start:
WAS DAELIN WRONG? ALLIANCE!
This cinematic is self explanatory.
Jaina a feels guilty for betraying her father.
But this one justifies her action:
Her mother after witnessing what DID happened that day she understands she couldn’t save her father from himself.
Now let’s discuss this cinematic:
Oh he was dead right for many reasons:
My conclusion: The Horde is what the narrative needs.
That’s it.
Without the Horde there’s no need for the Alliance to exist, there’s no need for the player character from both sides.
Might as well replace our talents for farming talents and replace the title for “Farmcraft”.
Legion, Old God’s, Scourge, are completely useless for a PVP narrative, why ?
Because they are played by NPCS
Unless people want to replace faction PVP for civil war.
Saurfang already stated on that video:
“The Horde and the Alliance couldn’t fill the chasm between them even if we labour for a 1000 years, you know that.”
From a Good War:
“I believe the exiles of Gilneas will never forgive the Horde for driving them away. I believe the living humans of Lordaeron think it is blasphemy that my people still hold their city. I believe the ancient divide between our allies in Silvermoon and their kin in Darnassus is not easily mended.” There was a smile on Sylvanas’s face. It was not a pleasant one. “I believe the Darkspear tribe hasn’t forgotten who drove them from their islands,” she continued. “I believe every orc your age remembers being imprisoned for years in filthy camps, wallowing in despair and surviving on human scraps. I believe every human remembers the tales of the terrible Horde that caused so much destruction in its first invasion, and I believe they blame every orc for that, no matter what your people have done to redeem yourselves. And I remember very well that I and my first Forsaken were once loyal Alliance citizens. We died for that banner, and our reward was to be hunted as vermin. I believe that there will be no permanent peace with the Alliance—not unless we win it on the battlefield on our terms. And believing that, answer this, Saurfang: what use is delaying the inevitable?”By the spirits, she is cold."
Sylvanas just destroyed any arguments Saurfang had, for a peaceful coexistence with the Alliance.
Anduin states Arthas and Darlin as two people that the Alliance isn’t proud of.
Arthas lived in a era without the Horde.
It should had been a time of peace and prosperity.
But my questions are:
Was this period of peace and prosperity ?
Did Arthas married Jaina and they lived happily ever after ?
Or someone got corrupted by the Legion and went on a rampage as equally destructive as Gul’dan Horde ?
My opinion Anduin meant in this situation the Alliance isn’t immune to Legion corruption.
Daelin Proudmmore started a war right after the Horde finished cooperating with the Night Elves and Jaina at Mount Hyjal.
They had established themselves outside Eastern Kingdoms territory.
2/3 of the Horde were composed by people who had no history with the Alliance.
Darkspear Trolls and Tauren.
Yet he judged this Horde on the same level as the former one.
Anduin refers to him as something the Alliance isn’t proud of.
This is my interpretation, without putting any of the characters under judgement.
If I went that road I could simply say Warcraft 3 is the best, Activision Blizzard needs a vilain in WoW that’s why the Horde got the sad add-ons they had, from Sylvanas and her Forsaken, to Garrosh and his Kor’kron, to being villain batted not once but twice.
I dont deny the crimes of the horde but i hate ppl talking about the alliance as the “good” faction. They both have their crimes except the horde has a bit more.
