What are you suggestions for nerfing rogue/mage?

Yeah and for some reason for pve also, they are top tier in pve also

Pfff yeah, atleast you could outplay a mage by moving into Los, but shimmer pretty much works as an interrupt protection + you can offensively land casts with it.
I’d rather have back deep freeze than this aids shimmer

Maybe because back then you could die as RM if you failed, but not now

Agree with all you said except one thing, shimmer is not more powerful than deep freeze in my opinion. (for people who don’t know what it is, it is an instant 5 second stun which froze the target aswell, and you could glyph it to be off the global cd) Here’s why:

Really good healers can outplay shimmer with very smart positioning and pillar hugging. It is not 100% like you say, unless you have help from your rogue or heal.

Now on the other hand, there was literally no outplaying deep freeze. There was only one outplay to deep freeze and that was predicting when it was gonna happen and use reflect/grounding. I’m sure I don’t need to explain how extremely and utterly difficult it is to predict an instant stun and act in time, plus it could be used to both get cc or shatter it and get a kill. And it wasn’t even like storm bolt or like that, it was literally instant with no travel time at all and off the global cd.
In short deep freeze was ridiculous.

Also if you use shimmer as interrupt protection then its not immediately available for offensive use/landing cc. Shimmer is extremely versatile Ill give you that, more than deep freeze, but i don’t think its more powerful. Anyway that’s just my opinion, obviously shimmer is a very close competitor.

Anyway shimmer should be an arcane only ability.
Frost and fire should lose it and frost should get back deep freeze as compensation to secure polies since fire already has db

I like it, fits the class fantasy aswell, frost gets deep freeze, arcane gets shimmer, and fire has db I guess, while db is great I don’t think it can be compared to either of the above tbh. the range makes it very limited in its use, you’d have to blink plus db most of the time.

You moved the goalpost there. My scenario only said “if CP was gone,” it said nothing about energy. You were the one who brought that up as a relevant thing in a debate about CP.

With this level of intellectual dishonesty, you show I see no reason to continue debating with. Even if I make another valid argument you’re going to insert something into it that it seems that you “win.” My argument here was valid so you had to move the goalpost and suddenly mention Energy even though I’ve never mentioned that and include that in the argument so you could counterargue my argument and avoid seeming “weak.” This is what all this is about, a strong person defeats their opponents and if they concede a point they seem “weak” and strong people are never weak.

Well, you just make it too easy for you to compare Rage (the only ressource you have) with CP which is only half of the ressources Rogues have. CP and Energy belongs together: no CP without Energy, “no” dmg without CP.

And that’s just the point you don’t get.

Intellectual dishonesty? I even doubt you know the meaning of it. Anyways, I wasn’t false, you were just the one who split something which inevitably belongs together to create an argument, so don’t tell me anything about intellectual dishonesty.

You haven’t made any so far, so that would be a welcome change.

It was not. It was just an argument like “I hate rogues, I want to be CP removed if they change target just because I don’t like them”. Even if you know, that this design would just be stupid. Not only in PvP but especially in PvE. Never wondered why they changed it in the first place?! If you honestly don’t, you aren’t on an intellectual level where you should discuss at all.

It wasn’t suddenly, I always mentioned it. Just a quote from my first post to you:

Ressources, plural…

2nd post:

Energy+CP/Chi …

2-ressource-mechanic…

So no dude, it wasn’t suddenly, you obviously just read what you wanted to read and ignored the rest.

Well, it’s not that I’m “winning”, it’s more like that you are losing. I don’t win anything at all from this discussion (don’t overestimate yourself dude, your opinion and this discussion have no value for me :slight_smile:) you just come with nonsense and know it. So thanks for the talk, have a good life.

P. S.: Don’t get me wrong, I also dislike rogues in it’s current state (Assa at least), but that doesn’t mean I would agree to obvious nonsense!

I said I might as well stop replying to you. I still stand by that as I believe it’s useless to say anything to you. You’ve constructed a narrative where you’re unasailable that consists of several incongruences and mistakes.

One mistake is to think that I think you’re doing it intentionally. I never said that, I never even hinted at it. You do it subconsciously and you still do it.

A second mistake it thinking that my argument is:

Which is your own bias clearly showing as anyone who states what has happened to your class must hate them. I never said the should lose all, I never even hinted at it, so stop thinking that I did. I gave the history of Rogues and their QoL changes, The only thing I said that comes even near it “call them something other than finishers when they can be used to open with.”

The CP finishers are good and hit hard to compensate for CP being on the target and their DPS falling like a rock when they had to switch. This was changed so CP are now on the Rogue instead. Their Finishers are still as good and hit just as hard as before the QoL change. Meaning they got objectively better as they got a buff for the weakness they were compensated for without losing the compensation. Which leads them to be extraordinarily good today. So yeah, either a cumulative loss of one or two CP when they change targets or a reduction in power of every Finisher Rogues has. Doing nothing is inexcusable as rogues dominate hard in every environment they are put into. They’re the best PvE DPS class and they’re the best PvP class now because they got compensated for a weakness, the weakness was removed and they kept the compensation.

How come you feel the need to divert attention away from the first. If you subconsciously believed that I was wrong and was losing then you’d never even seen a reason to mention the first. It’s like someone saying “I’m not telling a falsehood, you’re the one lying,” to cover up their own lying behaviour.

Do I think you do this intentionally? No. I think you think you’re a good and reasonable guy with little to no bias, except unaware of them you have loads of biases

One of them is that you define in your head what your opponent in a debate means with what they say and think. That’s creating a tribe of one. Where you’re right and everyone else is a hostile entity, this is tribalism, this is “Us vs. Them” on the smallest of scales.

Like everyone else, you think you’re the good person with little to no flaws. This is wrong. Then people straight away go to the opposite and think I see people as agent Smith in The Matrix does. This is also wrong. You’re neither good nor bad, you’re a person first who can act in a good or bad way.

Only in your little unchangable world - the issue here is that this little world doesn’t have to do anything with the objective reality.

Oh well, tbh here: I don’t really know what your thinking behind it is, but what I know for sure is that it cant be a thoroughly considered and objective proposal. Therefore, it was the most obvious assumption.

I don’t even play a rogue. :slight_smile: I mean, I have one on 120 but he’s like 360 equiped or something with like 20 hours played in total?! :wink: So I guess I’m not really showing any bias due my class - I explained how I got this assumption already before.

You said they should at least reduced by one or two if they switched target. That means on the one hand it’s not limited upwards (could be more) and on the other hand I only said “noone should lose ressources”. Which only means that ressources (in general) shouldn’t be reduced on a target swap.

So is it me overseeing something or are you really trying to create some pseudo argument/attack out of nothing? I mean, it would go very well with your current kind of intellectual wannabe chat, but is someone really supposed to fall for the worthless gibberish?

Anyways: it’s getting really late and you’ve proven not only to be unarmed but also a huge waste of time. I’ll handle you the same way I handle the well-known warlock:

As soon as I read your name, I will just overread your post. Therefore again the desire for a beautiful and fulfilled life - from my side nothing more will come in your direction, even if I am sure that someone with such a small ding-dong and a self-overestimated intellect cant leave such an answer sitting on him without comment! :laughing:

P.S.: You may have forgotten it, so here a little summary again. It was all about losing ressources on a target swap. You were the one who started becoming personal when your “logic” stopped working and I didn’t fall for the pathetic attempt to hide it.

dude that is exactly what it should be. You do unhealable damage to people WHILE they also cannot move. Why should you be able to do that damage while flying across the map?
Other classes have exactly the same problem.

Reaching a druid… funny. How do I reach a druid? well never is the answer. My mobility was also completely taken away. Rogues are just fricking spoiled. Maybe take away some mobility from druids instead too then?
I mean melees should not have 100% uptime on slippery casters.

we could also hire some devs that actually know how to code well and remove both problems, but guess that is a long stretch. Now it is a free pass to all rogues. prefer 1 immune spell to 5 seconds free stealth since the dmg is so low nowadays that you won’t die in this window anyways.
Also immuning 1 spell at least took some skill

thats why i said it is not an option. so you probably need to rework all the crap

we complain about mage and rogues since arena was implemented in tbc.
just nothing has been done about it :slight_smile:

And nothing will be my friend :upside_down_face:

I firmly believe no matter how much they Nerf mage/rogue, it will stay powerful because even if you Nerf their damage, sheep exists, which is the best spell in arena hands down, that and mage/rogue has a higher skill cap than most other comps, meaning the possibilities for outplays are abundant. People will still play it, and people will still be salty cause they got sheeped 3 times into blind into kidney/ fear. that’s what? 8+4+1+8+5. 24, that’s 24 seconds where you can not move your character. that will never change no matter ho much you Nerf it. Sheep, blind and kidney are not going anywhere, ever.

If you hate mage/rogue so much play a damn counter comp.

Here are some ideas:

Jungle, Dh/boom, Fmpala are some popular comps that counter Rmpala. Rsham/spriest/x and other surv hunter teams can be a toss up.

I despise running into rshaman/x in 2s as mage/rogue. You don’t see me saying nerf shamans!

there is one?
And i thought RMPala actually dominates everything now lel

obviously nothing will be done about rogue mage, because blizzard don’t give a rats assss, me neither anymore. Would be fine if my class could at least press a def cd before I m dead like it was in woltk. I mean I died a horrible death but at least I could TRY to survive the opener. Now I cannot do anything lul

There you go, you did’t read it for some reason.

that are not counters mkay

a counter means i win even if I make mistakes while they are not.
a perfectly played rmpala has no counter

No one is perfect, no such thing as “perfectly played”, we are human and subject to human error. So yes, they are indeed counters or the closest you’ll get to a counter. By your definition, a counter comp is a free win, which it’s not in any way, shape or form.

like I said, it is not a counter. If both sides makes mistakes, rmp will still win.
They have a lot more fail free buttons then all other comps and specs combined

you cannot calculate human error, so you have to calculate perfect vs perfect or trash vs trash.
how do you calculate 3 errors vs 3 errors while you don’t know how severe the errors are?
if you trinket too early you are dead vs rmp. if you knock the rogue out of stealth it is like no one even care because lol subterfuge. fail doesn’t equal the same fail

point stands, rmp has no real counter at the moment.
Even when beastcleave was more or less a counter it was not 100% consistent.
And yes a counter means you have barely any chance to win that matchup.

frost mage is a counter to ret pala
you only win if the frost mage is afk.

You’ll have a better chance of winning against rmp playing the comps I mentioned, so If it bugs you, instead of complaining on the forums, (not saying you did, I don’t know if you did), play those comps and you’re chances of winning go up. That’s what a logical person would do, not ask for something that we both know isn’t gonna happen, at-least not now.

And do you enjoy how bad your class is now ? I don’t think so. Making a melee never able to reach someone who kites with the right class is a flaw and that’s all.

… Immuning stuff with vanish before cata wasn’t a “problem” it was how it was designed …

  1. Not 5.