What Blizzard can learn from Classic and Retail wow

I first experienced wow back in 2007 during TBC days. A friend of mine introduced me and I made my first character, a blood elf rogue because I was restricted to Horde due to him and his guild. Nelf was always my fav. The experience was really fun, I remember the world feeling very much alive and dangerous, making friends as I leveled, the social aspect felt very natural, you would always just encounter people during quests and travelling across the landscape.

Over the years I’ve thought heavily on this topic, not just on wow but on mmo’s in general and the decline of them over the years. I’ve always had a big passion for game design, I have a degree in it and I currently work as a Concept Artist, so hopefully my opinion has a little bit of knowledge backed behind it.

I’ve come back to wow many times over the years on and off but due to the direction of the game I always got bored after a couple of weeks and left for other things. Now thats not to say that retail wow doesn’t have strengths, it certainly does and I think these strengths AND weaknesses become so much more obvious with the release of classic wow.

Lets start with the release of Classic. I jumped on the bandwagon and brought two friends along for the ride with me. These 2 people have played many other mmo’s previously, their favorites being Star Wars Galaxies and Lotro but they had never actually played wow before. With the hype behind classic they gave in and decided to join me. The immediate first question I got was ‘why didn’t they use the modern graphics for classic? their so much better.’ I had to explain that people wanted classic exactly the way it was before. ‘But upgraded graphics doesn’t affect the gameplay?’ was their reply and something I agreed with. I do wish blizzard had used the newer graphics, their honestly so much better but nostalgia is a strong fuel and something I saw very much apparent when I looked into the reasons why. Graphics are always secondary to gameplay though so its a pill I can swallow for a good game.

And so our journey began. I gave a brief summary of how the classes were to my friends. When I dived into the hunter class and talked about the differences of depth with the pet mechanics and ammo compared to modern wow one of my friends thought it sounded very interesting. I found myself talking a lot about major differences between the games in our first few days of playing. As we began to level we encountered random players that joined us occasionally for quests and sometimes a new person was added to my friends list, I took a boat to eastern kingdoms and was chased by a dwarf for ‘eyeballing’ his gnome partner the wrong way. The world felt dangerous again and alive, its crazy how much larger azeroth feels compared to retail and how relevant everything is down to a single road sign showing you the right way to a quest location.

As we got half way through darkshore one of my friends said the game certainly was starting to feel very dated to him and that he wasn’t enjoying the grind as much. He wanted to try modern wow also just to see the differences and so we jumped on for a few hours. Last time I had tried the game was at the beginning of bfa so I still remembered a great deal of how the game was currently. We decided on going to Argent Dawn mainly due to the lack of cross-realm, the three of us are very fond of a strong community on a server and one where you encounter a player at low level and are likely to see them again later on in the world. I was aware that retail wow had pretty much destroyed this outside of close-knit guilds.

We started leveling, first thing they said to me was, holy **** this is ridiculously easy, why are we 1 shotting everything. I told them thats just the way leveling is these days, the games gone into the direction of rush to endgame to the point where blizzard will give you a lvl 110 when buying bfa. One of my friends jaw dropped - ‘whats the point of everything before then? that sounds terrible.’ We carried on, again they admired the updated graphics and animations, we also all agreed that classes felt more fluid and fun, even though I mentioned to my friend the streamlined differences in the hunter class he was really enjoying just how they felt in moment to moment gameplay compared to the duller gameplay of the hunter in classic. Its just a shame quests offered literally 0 challenge while leveling. We played for a few hours and they both said to me they couldn’t play this anymore, it felt so mindless and dull while leveling.

And so after that little story I’ll give some of my thoughts and what I think Blizzard should try and learn from the fundamental differences between the two games and how extracting the strengths from both could truly make an amazing MMO.

Classic Wow Strengths

  • The World
    I watched the WoW classic with creators vid that blizzard released recently on youtube. I remember they mentioned that during classics development, a phrase that was preached was that the main character of the game was the world itself and it certainly holds true while playing. The journey to 60 is engaging, the gameplay mechanics naturally bring players together and socializing and making friends just naturally happens. You find yourself speaking to people for various things and really feeling that sense of community early on. When I was leveling my Nelf, there was a player called Lizzie in Teldrassil selling 6 slot bags to players for 10 linen, quickly people were asking for whether she was online in trade chat. Encounters like these I still remember days later, its sad when I think back to the many times ive tried retail over the recent years and cant remember the name of a single player I randomly met while in game since MoP.
  • Challenge up until max level
    Honestly I hate the aspect of trying to rush to max level to experience the ‘real content’. Why would I waste my time with a game if I have to endure tedious boredom until endgame. Thats just bad game design and something developers should never try to enforce and players should never try to tell other players that thats okay, its not plain and simple. A game should be designed to be engaging from the beginning and offer challenge and fun from the the start of the journey, not be 120 levels of tutorial. Typically if you respect players that their intelligent enough to overcome challenges as they level, people will enjoy your game more. Classic does this well. You have to be careful how many mobs you pull, you have to make sure that you have food and water or bandages while questing, manage your resources and watch your movement. The game begins at level 1 in classic, not level 120.

  • No crossrealm, no sharding. Your server is your community
    Remember Lizzie that was selling those 6 slot bags, I saw her later on in darkshore, BigSteve the irish warrior that helped me for a couple of quests then logged off to watch the Rugby, he charged into a spider cave and saved me from certain death from mutilple aggro’d mobs. Players gain a reputation, that a**hole ninja looter, that great healer, that enchanter that scammed you in stormwind. Reputation on a character, you get to know players on your server even if you dont directly interact with them. This in turn creates strong community and is one of the pillars of creating a long-lasting mmo that players want to stay in.

  • Class Diversity
    If you’ve ever played DnD, you will notice parallels between it and classic wow. Each class has unique aspects it can bring to the table and help add unique utility to a group. Rogues making a living from picklocking boxes in capital cities, mages creating food and water or charging for their portal service.

  • Professions Matter
    Got that tailor in your group that can make your bags for you, great. Your a leatherworker that can make your own armor, fantastic. Your a herb/alchemist on your rogue, better start aiming for that thistle tea. Every profession in classic is useful and adds benefit. Early quest rewards don’t just give you everything, your gear doesnt get outscaled so quickly that creating your own gear is meaningless, it all matters and you better save for that mount later on.

  • World Pvp
    There is no button that turns this magically off, your on a pvp server, pvp can happen, ‘naturally’ (key word). Better watch your back in neutral territory. I love this. It adds more engagement and danger to the world, creates new social experiences. ‘Crossroads is under attack!!’ Better call the bois for backup! And that brings me to my next point.

  • Immersion
    All of the points above add to this. Theres no dude driving around on a motorcyle at level 1, one-shotting everything. Bosses feel like bosses, everything matters in classic and righfully so. Theres people on your server that are known as the go to enchanter or blacksmith. Things felt more grounded in classic, you could easily get immersed into the world and the challenges that lie ahead right from the beginning. Theres a reason why strong friendships were made in this game and mmo’s of this type.

Classic Weaknesses

  • The Grind
    Theres certainly a few quests that come to mind from my recent experiences in Darkshore when I think of grind. Killing 20 bears that are scattered widely across the northern area that have a chance of giving you a 10minute debuff known as rabies. Or a quest to claim some pelts with an extremely low droprate so your there for an hour for just 4. These unengaging quests are one of the big aspects of classic that feel very dated for 2019 and definitely feel boring after a while.

  • Graphics
    From seeing some peoples opinions on the matter, I know there will be some that disagree with me on this and thats okay. I just ask you to look at yourself and question how much of that is nostalgia. I personally think Blizzard did a great job of upgrading the graphics bit by bit in retail. Its a big improvement over the olden days and something I think should have been incorporated in the classic launch. The art department is amazing at Blizz and something i personally strive for as a concept artist. But again, good graphics don’t make a good game but they certainly help.

  • Finding Quest Locations
    I was on the fence about this at first, but how fun is it really to read or skim through a wall of text after accepting every quest to find the vague location of something. On the plus side it can be a further push into players socializing with one another to find a quest location but with the way modern day internet is most people will just google anyway so that point usually becomes null. It does encourage the player to learn the locations and follow up on some of the lore but in 2019 this is not the ideal way to tell the story of an area. We can see blizzard really improve on this in their storytelling methods of late-game retail wow. As such I think for these kind of quests that are in classic its an improvement to have quest locations marked on the map like retail.

Retail WoW Strengths

  • Stronger storytelling
    I touched on this a little earlier but I think its evident that the storytelling has become stronger over time, with the cutscenes showcasing pivotal moments in a characters story along with voice acting and dynamic changes to the landscape during a quest. A lot of this comes down to modern technology allowing for better systems perhaps and I just think over time Blizzard were able to incorporate new ideas into how to best tell a compelling story in an MMO Setting. Its far from perfect but I personally haven’t seen an mmo do it better than retail wow thus far.

  • Level Design
    I think its obvious Blizzard have gotten better at creating more interesting zones and dungeons. The visuals and designs are better which is obviously mostly down to the art department but also the way an area is structured for the player to navigate and complete quests is better, backtracking for a quest is nullified a great extent to eliminate tedious downtime (though again one has to be careful with this as you can quickly make the world feel a lot smaller.) I remember the first time I went through the pandaria starting area, it was by far my favorite leveling experience for a new character.

  • Graphic/Visuals
    This was touched on earlier so I wont go over it again. Obviously technology advancements over time allow for better visuals as with any game but I think Blizzard certainly got better with art design.

  • Group Finding / LFG
    This may turn some heads but I think group finding is the better approach for a modern mmo. Lets start with structured pvp. I really enjoy queuing up for BG’s and Arena to get placed into a game and feel it brings no harm to the game. Then we move onto dungeons, by queuing for a dungeon with a group we eliminate the 30mins-1hr time spent spamming chat for a group, running to the dungeon, Billy the Dwarf gets lost on the way and Fred the Gnome gets attacked by the horde. You might say but this creates stories and is interesting and you’d be right. However, we don’t all have unlimited time and this could add on another 1-2hrs of downtime before you even arrive. Someone might have to leave for dinner, another has to leave to pick his kid up from school. For me personally I just dont have the time for spamming chat for LFG that is tedious and not fun. You could take away the porting to the dungeon entrance and just have a group put together through group finder, then the team have to make their own way to the dungeon and that would be a decent compromise.
    Now onto the argument players make that Group finder eliminates alot of the social aspect of dungeons. I’d say their wrong here, what eliminates the socializing is Cross-realm and dungeons being so mind-numbingly easy in retail wow during leveling. Its just a means to an end to grind xp right now, nothing provides challenge. If we add some challenge back into dungeons and some downtime for mana/healing between fights like classic we now have windows of time where people socialize and have to co-operate. If you remove cross-realm play people also feel more of a desire to get to know their group as they may encounter them again in the game, this also helps to encourage politeness as your in the same server, if someones an a** to the hunter in the group it may follow them around later.

  • Events & Side-activities
    Fun events and side activities can be a nice aspect to an mmo. It adds another layer of depth and diversity to the game. The Darkmoon faire or pet battle systems. Not every player will enjoy these and it shouldn’t be mandatory but it can add some fun diversions to enjoy and get involved in if the player wishes to.

  • End-Game
    Admittedly I don’t have as much knowledge with retail wow when it comes to current endgame, especially with BFA but I know that theres a lot of diversity with mythic dungeons, raids, arena, rated bg’s etc. Boss mechanics are more interesting compared to the olden days and overall I feel like Blizzard do a fairly good job when it comes to retail endgame compared to the old days.

  • Combat Gameplay
    Class combat gameplay is a big step up in how fluid and fun it feels compared to classic in my opinion. My rogue felt a lot more enjoyable leveling when i jumped onto retail compared to leveling in classic, same with warrior/hunter etc. The flow of combat just felt really fun. The issue was the lack of challenge as mentioned earlier, with everything being close to 1 shot or posing no threat, where I don’t really have to think until I reach max level, thats what makes it mindbogglingly dull. But the flow of gameplay when fighting mobs, thats a definite step up and I think Blizzard certainly got better at upgrading the feel and flow of gameplay in combat.

Retail Weaknesses

  • The World
    Due to the lack of challenge when questing through the world and the way Blizzard have enforced rushing through this content to reach endgame, the majority of the world now feels dead, barren and mostly empty of players. There is little challenge to be had out there, people stick to 1 or 2 city hubs, mostly port to their dungeons/raids and only communicate with their guild. The world becomes lifeless, its almost pointless for it being there at this point. What would fix this is if leveling had the challenge of classic again and gaining xp was slower paced like back then. Players wouldn’t mind this at all if the leveling experience was engaging and fun like the olden days, if players were scattered around the world and it felt immersive seeing players doing all sorts of things once again. Players have only been preaching to level faster and just get to endgame content now because of the initial problems mentioned, its mindnumbingly easy and empty of players which in turn makes it so boring. What these players dont realize is their slowly destroying the game when asking for the mechanics to head into this direction. The RPG of this modern mmo has disappeared.

  • Heirlooms
    I cant stand Heirlooms. Ever since they were first introduced I knew they were bad for the game long-term. Their not friendly to new players and quickly boost characters to max level further emptying the majority of questing zones of more players. Want to queue into Battlegrounds with some new friends you’ve introduced to the game? Prepare to be destroyed by the majority of players stacked in heirlooms with the most optimized gear for their level right up to endgame. This is another practice that Blizzard introduced to promote characters to rush to max level, ‘get to the new content as fast as you can!’ this destroys an mmo’s world.

  • Flying-Mounts
    Another aspect that empties the zones in the overall world of players. This and portals conveniently laid out in cities eliminates players travelling the traditional ways through the world by zepplin, boat and train. Flying mounts are bad for the game. They further eliminate naturally random player interactions that are one of the core aspects of an mmo. They make the world feel a lot smaller and destroy world-pvp. The issue at this point is that its very difficult to close this door in a game when its been opened. Imagine Blizzard removing this now after players have collected all their flying mounts. The backlash from the community would probably be pretty big even though it would be the correct decision. When making a new MMORPG, dont add flying mounts to the game.

  • Professions
    Professions have become almost pointless at this time in the game. Gone are the perks of crafting your own gear as you leveled, the big differences they applied to a characters strengths ingame. Quest rewards will give you everything you need and more, you’ll make more gold from simply doing random dungeons and questing than you ever would from crafting/gather mats until endgame. Gone are the players that are known for their professions and someone you would seek out to craft something for you. People in Classic, TBC sometimes would centre their gameplay around the economy and crafting. Theres very few if any that do that anymore.

  • World-PVP
    Once again due to the huge push to rush everyone to endgame and eliminate the player activity in the rest of the world open world-pvp is so much worse off and pretty much dead compared to earlier times. Get rid of warmode, bring back pvp and pve servers with no crossrealm. Open world pvp that naturally happened as I quested has always been one of my favorite aspects of an mmo. One thing I always loved was exploring the enemy factions territory while having to watch my back, setting up little expeditions, trying to fish in stormwind without being caught by the enemy players. The great times in stranglethorn vale during tbc. Defending the crossroads etc.

  • Class Design
    Now this can be a pro and a con for retail WoW. Some design choices theyve made have been great changes. My two current favourite specs in the game are Outlaw Rogue and Survival Hunter. One of the big issues I think is that classes dont feel as unique in their skillsets as they once did and its something ive seen others mention. Everyone pretty much has a heal, utility, cc and can do everything at this point. Pretty much gone are those aspects of rogues picklocking special chests and doors, warlocks summoning players, mages making much needed portals for people. The new talent system is sleeker and more modern, it has some nice aspects but eliminates truly making your character spec unique to others. Committing to your spec due to costs of changing. The old glyph system taken away. Bring back more customization for a players character class, adding more theorycrafting for players to enjoy.

  • Race Design
    Something that is always present in a good rpg is diversity in races within the game. Racial skills and stats for a race that are relevant and show diversity in skillsets. I remember when undead being able to eat corpses to regain health and breathe underwater indefinitely was a big strength and lore-friendly. Now every race pretty much has an unlimited underwater breath meter because it goes down so slow. Why is it even in the game anymore at this point? I remember reading through my wow instruction manual as the 4 disks installed onto my computer, checking out the stat differences and what would suit the class and character I wanted to make. Bring back certain classes being locked to a faction like the shaman and paladin. This adds diversity to factions and adds more interesting player decision making. When every race can be everything and the only difference is purely cosmetic it becomes a lot more boring and further takes away from the RPG of the game.

  • Lack of RPG in this MMO
    Its been an echo as I’ve listed retails weaknesses. There is very little RPG in modern day WoW, to the point where its become a different kind of game. Bring back this core aspect, its why so many people fell in love with WoW and the mmorpg genre in the first place.

  • Immersion
    And in direct contrast to classic WoW. The weaknesses listed above are all the major reasons why the immersion is all but gone from the ‘world’ of warcraft. The original idea that the world was the main character has been pretty much destroyed, now the game panders to the players every need and assumes you cant handle any challenge and need to be overly rewarded at every turn. Blizzard need to make the whole game relevant again, not just endgame. That isnt what an mmorpg is. The journey to max should be every bit as relevant as endgame. Players should be busy travelling across the entirety of the world, not sitting in city hubs teleporting to a dungeon and interacting with little else. Allow the player to truly get immersed while their exploring and adventuring out in the world again.

And so closing point. Its difficult to fix problems to a 15 year old game at this point that have slowly built up from some bad game design decisions along with bloat of content layered continually on top but I dont believe in any way its impossible. I sincerely hope that Blizzard take a strong look at why Classic is currently being successful and had such a strong outcry to come back in the first place. Learn what made that game good, learn what doesn’t work so much and try and extract the strengths from both games to move the modern game forward, or at the very least I hope outside developers take note of whats happening here and learn what truly makes a great mmorpg for the modern day.

There may be some things I missed in listing, some points that will come to mind later but I wanted to put down my thoughts in a forum post, even if just a few people read this, hopefully it can give some insight and create a small ripple.

Cheers.

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I’ll reply to very specific parts of it but w/e

Unless you play priest since one heal is your entire HP, costs like 1/8th of your mana during low levels and your mana doesn’t take too long to regen.
IDK how you can see classic leveling as a challenge it just seems more tedious to me :woman_shrugging: but maybe that’s just me.

I don’t see crossrealm as a bad thing, IMO having people locked to one server in this day and age is the opposite of smart, I can live without sharding, even though I don’t really care about it too much.

The thing is though, if you do any content that isn’t heroic dungeons or LFR you do interact with people, you’re just not forced to interact with people like in classic.

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I read your entire wall of text (because I’m stuck in a queue) and I have to say I agree wholeheartedly to everything you mention, except one thing; Finding Quest Locations.
I find it more interesting (and immersive) to have to be forced to read the quest and figure out where the location is and why. Because that’s what you would have to do in a believable situation, without the magic gps and glowing lights on the map screaming “IT’S HERE”.

I’ve resorted to Thottbot and wowhead like anyone else, but because it’s not just given to you in game, I only do it as a last resort and try to figure things out first.

Great piece by the way, I wish Blizzard would find a middle term with retail, because right now I just log for guild raiding.

There is such a thing as having too many options being bad for you, and it’s true on the current state of the game. We have everything we want, and that’s not necessarily a good thing.

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lmao so agreed. It’s the first thing I noticed, I can fail a quest! I had so much fun searching for the location of the brew I had to deliver as a dwarf. And the lost equipment I had to search for a refugee gnome.

I don’t think BfA has bad quests, because it too is very immersive and memorable, if you indeed take off your gear and take on the real challenge that was actually designed to be played without gear for some strange reason.

Blizzard really makes good challenging gameplay, but I don’t know why they hide it from the players.

No offence but this topic really didn’t need yet another thread. There plenty of them where you could’ve voiced your opinion without adding yet another classic vs retail post.

Also i’ll just quote a few things 'cuz that’s a hella long post u_U

Seeing how the last leveling revamp (7.3) was recieved you’d be surprised to learn how many people don’t like the classic leveling process (Not talking about scaling but how that change made leveling harder and slower)

As for me… Tbh leveling my Enh shaman in retail through Shadowmoon vale was much, much harder than leveling my hunter in classic. You only two shot mobs for a few levels and at some point you get killed in a dozen hit, which happens pretty fast if you pull three mobs at a time for the sake of efficiency. As far as modern leveling goes, Enh shaman is challenging (lots of close calls as the kit rewards you for taking multiple mobs at once)

Currently liking classic, but loved leveling my shaman too.

You’re wrong there, farmed nearly 50k gold worth of materials while leveling with mining, at least based on my server market back then.

To be fair there’s next to nothing preventing you to do so yourself as you don’t have to level your professions through 7 expansions. I have nearly all professions on my toons at max lvl and i’m working on the older expansions content.

There’s nothing hard anymore when it comes to professions as you all get the same recipes and only at max rank will you be able to profit from those.

World PvP is more relevant now than it has ever been in years tbh… All thanks go War mode. If you’ve never experienced WM faction assaults before 8.2 then you may not share my opinion but along with the weekly call to arms it led to great moments in game.

Ever made a 4 Man party to take down the assassin and his ~10 friends, die trying a few times until you finaly get the kill, farm the other faction until you all get the assassin title only for getting hunted by the other faction afterward ?

WM has a lot of issues, but it’s imo the best feature from BFA.

Allied races racials are great though (most of them at least)

Funny how this argument is used left and right without any real argument backing it.

For what it’s worth i’ll play and enjoy both for different reasons. I set my goals and intend to reach them even if it takes months.

As for what could be “learned” from classic, that’s hard to tell. Some changes happened for a reason, and blindly removing them could cause more issues than anything. (Sharding, ilvl inflation, scaling and so on)

If an appropriate solution is there to deal with the original issue then these systems could be removed, but for the time being we’re better off with them.

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Apologies for the late response I’ve been busy with work.

I decided to summarize my overall personal thoughts on the current state of the game. I care about Blizzard and WoW and its a hella long post because I wanted to list down everything I feel I’ve identified with the strengths and weaknesses of the games over the years. This would not of been appropriate in a random response to another thread.

In regards to Classic, the one complaint I’d have over the leveling process would be that it can feel grindy, its certainly dated but that weakness is far better than mindlessly easy leveling in current retail. This no challenge to leveling remains up until past level 100 which is a serious problem. You say your enh shaman in retail was much harder than leveling your hunter in classic. Im sorry but this is simply not true unless your deliberately trying to pull several mobs at once as you mentioned. You cannot even try to do that in classic unless your in a group, especially in the earlier levels. I explained this in my original post but the challenge and slower pace of leveling is what keeps people wanting to continue playing in classic, what keeps the world engaging and people travelling all across. In retail, you can literally turn your brain off, there is no challenge until you get to endgame - and this is what is driving new players away. Being told the fun starts at endgame or being given a level 110 character from the get go is really bad game design.

Yeah I suppose this depends on the server. But I’d argue its typically more time efficient to quest/spam dungeons for xp/gold in current retail, its why you see a lot of players giving the advice of not bothering with professions now until max level where as that was never the case in classic/tbc/wrath. Professions meant something, crafting your own gear was a big help back then, now its pointless.

Thats one of the major issues, that last sentence you just said. The fact that getting a profession high level isnt an achievement in itself anymore. Thats one of the reasons why certain players were known for their professions back in the day, why you would seek out that enchanter in stormwind and pay for his services. Some players use to centre their gold earning around crafting for other players, that is all but gone. Professions are a complete shadow of their former selfs, you just have to look at these forums to see so many players agreeing on the fact that professions are a bit of a joke now, ESPECIALLY when leveling.

“World PVP is more relevant now than it has ever been in years tbh…” you are correct, but still no where near as relevant as it was in classic wow and the 2 expansions that followed it. Warmode is an improvement over legion and several expansions previously but it only puts a bandage on top of a badly designed system.

Servers WITHOUT sharding and cross-realm is a 100% better system for the many reasons I stated in my original post. You have your server community back which is so important in an mmo, your on a pvp server, pvp can happen, your on a pve server pve will happen. Everyone you meet in the world is part of your server community, then we get rid of flying mounts and add in a more challenging, slower paced leveling experience and behold, more people travelling around the world and naturally more world-pvp.

Too bad new players cant experience these until theyve grinded mundane, repetitive tasks for rep ONCE they get to max level, oh but of course they should jump onto their level 110 free character and skip to endgame, that makes a good mmorpg…

If you think I stated a lack of RPG in retail WoW without giving any reasons to back it up I don’t know what to tell you, you either didnt pay much attention to my original post or my points went over your head.

Thats fine and Im happy you can get enjoyment out of retail wow, I dont dispute that at endgame theres still fun to be had but the overall world is a broken shell of what it once was.

Theres alot that can be learned from classic, some improvements blizzard made were for the better as we headed towards modern retail, I listed my opinion on the strengths and weaknesses in my original post. Its not about ‘blindly’ removing anything as you said, no-one has said this. Its about learning from the strengths and weaknesses from both forms of the game and learning from this. Its fair to say that retail WoW has been on a downward trajectory for a while now and its really sad to see.

Again I’m happy if you enjoy retail but please just check yourself as to whether you’re defending game design choices of retail because you think their objectively better or whether you just want to blindly defend the game you play.

If you don’t like a slower paced leveling experience I can see why you’d say this. Classic can definitely feel grindy at certain points but there is much more challenge there while leveling. You cant run to the boss mob of a quest and 2 shot him like you can in retail. You cant pull several mobs at once and destroy them with ease like you can with retail. You have to manage your resources. You dont in retail while leveling.

If you do any low level dungeon with a group in retail you will know this. How fast you blitz through the dungeon, no mana issues, no tanking issues. Everything dies ridiculously easy, there is no challenge there. Go to deadmines on classic, you’ll experience something entirely different.

Retail WoW doesnt have to be as slow paced as classic but it needs to at the vey least add in some challenge to leveling so that the experience stays fun to new and returning players before max level.

If you don’t see crossrealm as a bad thing, you might just be playing an mmo for entirely different reasons. Crossrealm kills a server community. It reduces incentive to speak to players out in the world and you no-longer bump into the same paladin you saw at level 10 that helped you out later down the road because he was playing on Outland and not silvermoon.

But if you go out into random parts of the world, its very quiet or dead. In the earlier expansions and classic, every part of the world is relevant, people traveled all over because they were busy leveling, flying mounts hadn’t yet been introduced and easy portals/flight masters weren’t every 10 steps from one another.

These things are what kill a world in an mmorpg.

Thank you. Glad you liked it. I can see why some people would find it more interesting finding quest locations themselves, its definitely more immersive. Just an off the top of the head idea but a middle of the road option could be to finding quest locations yourself but imagine with modern WoW’s voice acting for quests so that its a bit more engaging as opposed to constantly skimming through a wall of quest text. The npc could just summarize an approximate location with some voice acting after the player accepts.

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Nope, there’s a challenge when you pull too many. Guess what at higher levels during leveling the same thing happens on retail. If you pull strategicly there’s no challege, if you group up there’s no challenge. WoW was designed from the start as easy game for casual players. Vanilla WoW was called a game for kids becasue of how easy it was compared to other mmorpgs.

Sharding realy helps with server stability. As for cross realm without it I wouldn’t meet people I recently added to my friend’s list. I wouldn’t be able to offer my ingame help to most of the people that ask for it on the forums.

And that’s Blizzard’s current goal. People don’t like it. They want every class to be good at doing everything their role is supposed they don’t want classess to be good at one thing and bad at another. As for every class bringing something unique, it’s there on retail.

I have never enjoyed world pvp. I am on a realm that was pvp but not because it was pvp but becasue my friend was playing already there. I like that I can decide if I want to do wpvp or not without changing realms.

I still feel immersed and the motorcycle you don’t technicly drive it at level one, you hire a chauffer to drive it while you sit in the sidecar,

First of all this was introduced for max level players to make it easier to level an alt. There’s no problem with that. Also this and other changes to leveling that made it easier and faster were introduce because of hardcore endgame players. They wanted to quickly get multiple characters to max level so they can be prepared. Another thing is that heirlooms have been nerfed when the level scaling was made for whole world. Now they don’t have the best stats. People reported that blue items where better than heirlooms. I think it’s a good thing beceuse that forces you to choose if you want faster leveling or better stats.

The only problem is that people should stop telling new players to rush to max level or to buy heirlooms. You don’t need them. I didn’t rush on this char, took me months to get to level 85 as it was during cataclysm. I just didn’t wanted to move to another continent before finishing the every quest in the continent I was in. My first alt even fully decked in heirlooms took me 3 years to get to level 100, started leveling him in mop and got to current max level in WoD because again i wanted to do every quest. People don’t have to rush.

They tried to take that away, didn’t work. Now we have a compromise, half of the expansion without flying. People still complain about lack of flying.

Mages don’t have a heal. Every class has different utilty, different cc. Everyone can do alsmost everything but some classess are much better and doing certain things than others. For example some are good at aoe and suck and single target. Some suck at burst damage but have great sustained damage.

They can still eat corpses and unlimited water breathing wasn’t added for undead until Warlords of Dranor. Before that they just could hold their breath 3 time longer.

As for races I have never took racials or starting stats into consideration when choosing a class. I just go for aesthetics. There is still some minmaxing in this regard in the game but this takes away the choice for some people. Having almost everyone being human in pvp because of racial doesn’t make for visualy interesting game.

Eh, I guess that’s where our definition of challenge differs, I don’t really find it challenging to wait for a bit after using all my mana to kill a 2-3 mobs on my priest or drinking after most packs in deadmines, it just makes me approach it a bit differently, to each their own I guess, but yeah low level dungeons in retail are incredibly easy and boring as heck.

Yeah, atm I only really play for m+ and to spend time with my friends when I feel like it, I’m not really too much into socializing.

Personally it feels the same whether i play on AD or on Draenor, tbh I think that’s more of an issue of how the expansions relevancy aged

We may have different notions of challenge then. Imo something is challenging when you can achieve when you do it right but if you mess up et some point you’re dead.

Classic is more about requierements and even doing things right won’t be nearly enough to save you.

The best way to quest in classic is to always be a few lvl higher than your quest because of how impactful levels are and how much xp you still get from Green mobs and quests. At that point it’s not even hard, you can pull 4 mobs and survive with some classes… And that’s the most efficient way to levelup through questing.

With my hunter i solo’ed two of the duskwood lvl35 elites at lvl28. That was challenging, but only because i forced myself to do it the hard way. I can solo orange quests albeit slow and usualy don’t have issues with mobs up to ~3lvl higher than me. Is it the class, or the fact that i’m not undergeared while leveling thanks to LW ? Still i either can win without challenge or just can’t do anything and die. Not so many close calls outside of PvP encounters.

Meanwhile in BFA the best way to quest is to pull as much as you can while questing, and Enh shaman rewards you for pulling many targets. Your only sustain will cost you the ressources you need for dps and you’ll die in a dozen of seconds, so missing a heal can kill you.

I find more challenge in ending a 5mob pull with 10% hp while being time efficient than the binary clasic hunter leveling of being extremely safe until you do something that you shouldn’t have. When the only close calls you experience come from orange quests, pulling 5 mobs & being slowed and skull mobs then it’s just a slower experience, not really challenging.

That said that’s only as a hunter, tried warrior and it was much more punishing even at low levels.

I always tell new players to pick mining and herb while leveling though, as every node give you 2.5 mobs worth of XP and ores usualy sell for a high price.

Biggest issue with crafting professions is that you outlevel the professions real fast, and that the items are almost useless as you’re showered with green loot. This needs to be fixed imo

This system is both a major issue and a good fix depending on what you’re expecting from professions. It allows you to catchup with the playerbase (farming 800/800 before crafting BFA recipes would be terrible for returning and new players alike) , but at the same time allows everyone to have these professions maxed, making it really hard to profit from them.

I used to pay my sub in BFA with professions for example. Skinning > LW > Enh was wonderful until 8.2 and the benthic Gear.

Professions are in a bad state currently but that design isn’t really to blame imo. The lack of usefull recipes made the whole market crash.

I don’t deny it, i really enjoy seeing more players while leveling in classic (although ashenvale was a nightmare on my server as alliance u_U)

Thing is : the current classes / combat system prevent sharding from being disabled in BFA. Servers can’t even hold a 40v40 fight without lags while using a system made to reduce the load on the servers, removing it won’t magicaly solve anything.

One more thing to consider is that Classic is still “fresh” content. I couldn’t really play for the first week and ended up in empty zones with next to no other players, until i catched up with the pack in the lvl 20 zones. Sharding cap was lower back then so it might be different but why would classic be different than retail when it comes to low player interactions, low WPvP and low number of dungeon runs in the “old content” => the lower level zones.

The current WPvP encounters are artificialy high because we all started at the same time, but once we reach phase 4 and 5 i’m pretty sure the leveling experience won’t be nearly as stressfull in the popular zones.

That wasn’t part of your point tho ?

Anyway, imo even if the acquisition method can be modified it doesn’t really make sense to take away any reward from older content just because you have to farm it. Locking the legion races behind WQ grind isn’t a good idea imo but i’m fine with the allied races concept.

Just like you didn’t mention ilvl inflation nor scaling iirc. My point there was just that we should also take into account the original issue rather than just the side effects.

Was it worth to trade a more cohesive World for sharded World with better stability, less burden on the servers and a better gameplay (just talking about dots affected by haste, faster refresh, more data allocated to buffs, CDs, procs and so on) ? Tbh i don’t think so but you gotta keep it in mind.

Didn’t plan to make a wall of text (and here we are u_U really should’ve stopped writing earlier) so i only replied to the part of your post i had issues with. If anything i only defended War mode, the fact that Classic leveling as a hunter wasn’t challenging and that you had to take into account the original issue when thinking about replacing a system.

Didn’t imply more than what was written in my post, you targeted Blizzard not me afaik.

If you want an overall comment then i’ll settle with that :

BFA and Classic do not face the same issues nor the same situation. Millions started playing at the same time, amplifying the community aspect and player interactions. There’s a reason why some Pservers had 3 servers with the first 2 being dead, a fresh start is an exciting experience in an MMORPG.

Meanwhile on retail most players have played for years and are all looking for something diffferent in the game. The tools and informations available turned the challenging content into an optimisation frenzy and some players expectations will contradict each other

Classic can get away with many things, like some weird itemisation, specs unable to use their kit because of the debuff limit, balance, dead specs and so on.

Points like flying, no Xrealm (dead servers going to be even deader ?), more diverse races (so either more powerful racials or less classes per race i guess ?), LFG or even going back to the previous profession system will contradict with the expectations of many players for various reasons. Who’s in the right at this point ? The biggest demographic ?

The WoW playerbase is a mess, and classic like design aren’t always the best solutions even if it worked well back then.

Professions and War mode come to my mind for example. Professions lack depth and usefull recipes but going back to the 300/300 model isn’t the best one either as returning players aren’t really something classic has to worry about. War mode allows you to WPvP when you want, but its main issues mostly come from sharding not the fact you can leave easely in a rested area.

Going for a more cooperation based experience works as long as you have players available to do the content with you. A harder leveling experience is great as long as it’s not just the spreadsheet like challenge from classic, where your stats will dictate much of how an encounter will end up. A more down to earth storytelling wouldn’t really make sense after 15 years of killings gods, dragons or demons and saving the World a dozen of times. A server community works as long as there are still players on your server, at which point Xrealm techs are well recieved.

The classic audience is a big goal for Blizzard and there’s no doubt in my mind that they are working on how to appeal to it with the next expansion. Classic did some things good, but how many are appliayable right now in retail ? Cooperation and group content in open world i guess ? More class fantasy ? More crazy items ?

Cross realm absolutely is a bad thing, this is supposed to be an MMO, throwing a bunch of random people you’ll probably never see again in the world isn’t a good way to help foster friendships or build communities.

Not to mention cross realm still has restrictions on things such as trading, joining guilds and even different auction houses, none of these things should be a thing in a proper MMO.

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I would like to add two more things to your list.

  • outdated Interface in classic and retail. The regular interface lacks nearly everything an up to date game is offering. It’s clunky and inflexibel. You can use Addons to change that, which brings me to the my second negative point.
  • Addons. There is a flood of player made extensions to the game that add stuff that either, should already be in the base game or that trivializes content to a degree that it’s a joke. So on the one hand they make content more and more tedious because players clear it too fast, on the other hand they enable players to use addons that makes it tremendously easier to clear all the content they provide.

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