I though ks was on 30sec, wtf is this nightmare
btw one swiss streamer is going through ‘every dd 2400 challenge’ and he analyzes twitch VoD frame by frame with each new class and general strategy for rogue is to KS enemy healer on cd
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Bro, I think that one guy just figured out why Assa is not nerfed yet → more race change money for blizz.
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cus often it feels like that. if you are training a target then you can’t kidney shot every 20 seconds cus of DR. 6 second kidney > 18 second DR starts after > add a couple seconds extra for random things like uptime / combo points, and you’ve basically got something like 26 seconds between kidneys half the time.
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How I wish rogue would not be an op class for just a week to see the cries of every rogue player that’s been fooling themselves into thinking they’re good and not just playing the busted class lel
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I sometimes go back and look at footage of s12 rogue to remind myself what it was like when rogue was bad.
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Assa Rogue here (since TBC), Rogue since Vanilla.
Overall, I agree that Assa Rogue is now too strong and needs to be toned down. But there are somethings we should be clear about in how it is done. Let me address your points first, and then I can give you my feedback as to what to do.
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Rogue’s fantasy is to be a 1v1 duelist. Our entire class is built around the concept of stalking our prey and killing it. Call me what you want, but the primary reason I play rogue is to play a class strong exactly for the 1v1 duels. This has to be contained in the fantasy. For this reason, Rogue is designed since Vanilla to be a pvp class and since the introduction of arena in TBC, rogue has been a dominating class here. There are tons of things we cant do as well. We cant tank. We cant heal. We cant deal ranged dps, and we are squishy.
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See point 1.
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All our unbreakable stuns are on diminishing returns. We cannot chain stuns in the same way other classes are capable. Our first cheapshot and kidney are the dangerous ones. However, a well coordinated team can bounce between cc’s to reduce diminishing returns, and it is why mage+rogue is so strong. But all classes can do this, not only rogue. If the meta is too fast for kidney shot, then the meta is also too fast for pala bubble, and I could go on. Remember, we are squishy, and rogue’s are most dangerous in the opener. Use this to your advantage.
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Can be said about many classes. Human and Undead was almost exclusively played in pvp because of their racials. The fact that racials sometimes can hardcounter a specific class (such as Dwarf/Iron Dwarf this expansion for Feral/Assa) is poor design. Unless racials are balanced around something else, you will always find min-max’ers changing to a race that can give them an edge. Jump into a 2v2 ranked arena just a couple of hours after the release of 10.0.5 and I already had 80% of teams being disc+arms. This community is so obsessed with min-maxing every little detal that this will ALWAYS include also considering if your race can give you an edge.
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We cant balance around fun. Fun is subjective. I find the most FUN thing about pvp is to know my opponents class’ weakness and strength and then utilizing it. For instance, Spear of Bastion + Spin is super strong on Arms. Doesnt change the fact that I find it hilarious to Disarm the warrior right after the Spear lands. Rogue’s have clear weaknesses too, and skilled players sometimes wreck me so hard I question my own choices in life. Not to mention the amount of CC in the meta has increased. Rogue had superior CC by a margin in TBC, this is not the case anymore, but we are still in the top tier CC group.
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See (1). Since we are a 1v1 duelist, the fewer people in the fight, the happier we are.
Now for my suggested changes:
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4set bonus is ridiculous. Assa is super strong even without it. We become insane with it. Right now the bonus damage is for bleed, but bleed is also our primary damage by 80%+. Therefore I suggest to instead make it buff nature damage so that it improves our poisons and envenom.
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Remove the AoE in the Shiv Talent. Since our fantasy is to be 1v1 duelists, I don’t want “free AoE”. Make us weak to groups and strong in 1v1, so that a counter to rogues is just to bring a couple of friends.
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Nerf our bleed damage, but buff our nature damage and poisons. Right now, a strategy in 3v3 is to just to bleed everything (like Feral’s), but this is too strong combined with our CC package. Rogue should have to decide if they spend energy on CC or damage. This way we can either burst or control, not both at the same time. This will give opponents more choice to react to us and in turn counterplay.
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By nerfing bleed and buffing nature damage, we dont get hard countered by Dwarves, we dont play the same game as Feral Druids, and we become less a DoT class and more an old-school Assa Rogue that hybrids between rot and burst.
Rogue does not need to be unbeatable in 1v1,2v2 or 3v3 to play into the fantasy… You just want to an unfair advantage haha
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(I agree that assa is currently too strong, below is a discussion on how to approach the nerf)
You have to decide between either
- Your class choice has an impact on what you bring to the game. You have strength and weaknesses that make you good in certain situations, bad in others.
- Your class choice is meaningless beyond spells having a certain color. We should homogenize all classes to be able to do the same things.
I argue wow is an RPG, thus class choice SHOULD matter. This means you have to find out what you want to do in the game and play the class that is good at that. This choice exist everywhere in WoW. Holy healers are for protection, Resto healers are for pure healing. Disc priest is for hybrid playstyle, Resto druid are for pure healing in a HoT package. You cannot attack rogue’s for being good at the literal thing rogue’s are suppose to be good at. With this logic, we can continue and say it is unfair that druids have HoTs and bear form, they should be casting heals like Holy Priest. It is unfair that retribution paladin has bubble and Arms warrior does not, we should remove bubble and make retribution paladin like arms warrior. Having classes in RPGs unfortunately means strength and weaknesses, your class cant do everything and this means frustration in the area’s were your class is not great.
As a rogue, I trade 1v1 strength for AoE weakness, and I trade melee dominance for ranged weakness, and I trade more damage for less survivability. This means that I am useless in Battleground group fights, unless I can find a single target to attack, away from the AoE cleave. This also means I am strong in 2v2. But there are so many things rogue’s cannot do.
The hard counter to rogue is to bring friends, to force us to not have targets to peel and to cleave us or focus us. Plenty of classes can do this. Tell your arms warrior to Disarm the rogue or your paladin to cast blessing of protection in the opener, and you ruined the most important part of the rogue fight. Knowledge is power.
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True 
It was quite funny to watch the AWC and see nothing but rogues.
Every game = rogue vs rogue
But hey ! almost unplayable according to rogue players 
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Increase kidney shot cd besides dmg nerfs 
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Currently the Diminishing Returns of stuns is only 18 seconds. Perhaps, instead of increasing the Kidney CD (which we can circumvent by Vanish → Cheap shot, if we really have to), it is better then to increase diminishing returns to 30s.
Actually having Kidney shot on 20s CD but diminishing returns on 30s is really good because then if a Rogue is spamming his kidney shot, then it will refresh diminishing returns and reduce its effectiveness, then only a skilled rogue knows to wait 31 seconds before using it again.
Diminishing returns work like this:
- Stun 1: 100% effective, 18 seconds starts.
- Stun 2: 75% effective, 18 seconds refreshes.
- Stun 3: 50% effective, 18 seconds refreshes.
- Stun 4: Immune. 18 seconds refreshes.
Thus a rogue that spams kidney shot with this change will screw up his own stunlock.
i hate when clueless people with non existent pvp exp come in the forums adn try to state their opinion in a completely irrelevant way.
You can make kidney shot a 1 min cd for assa and that spec will still be beyond broken, because it has nothing to do with kidney shot.Kidney shot has been in the game since the start of wow and there was a time where you could full kidney into a no dr cheap shot as well.
Main issue with assas rog is “shiv” having 2 charges on a 25cd cd and the 4set bonus that is based on buffing your strongest spells(garrote+rapture).
Both aspects needs to be nerfed at the same time inorder to find a balance.I honestly dont know how they can nerf shiv considering the current talent tree and spec design.They will probably nerf hemotoxin and make the healing reduction from shiv completly useless which i dont think is the right way.My personal way of nerfing asas would be , make shiv a 45sec cd with 1 charge in pvp and nerf garrote and rapture damage by %15.The spec will still be fine but not broken.
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hahaha this is so true, if Rogue isn’t the absolute no context best class in the game, Rogue players come crying that their class is unplayable. Very funny, but srsly its getting boring to see Rogue in every single AWC team for god knows how many years at this point
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ok then bring back interrupts on gcd, energy management for all melee and rogue and feral have combo points only on current target, thanks. Not even talking about bringing back all lost spellschools.
Best class at what? Last I checked, this is an MMORPG where classes excel at different things. If you want to retain that feature, then you will always have some classes that are better fit for Arena. The fact that one of those classes is THE CLASS made for 1v1 duels makes sense. And by the way, if we nerf rogue out of Arena, you will just have a new “strongest arena class”, because that is how classes work in a game like WoW.
Why do you think we have PvP class compositions? Because classes can utilize their class strengths to get great synergies. It is why rogue-mage is such a good 2v2 team.
The alternative solution is to homogenize everything and make classes just a choice of spell colors and transmogs.
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Assa Rogue get energy starved. We can produce a lot of burst with Thistle Tea in the opener, but in general our abilities stave our resources after the opener. Starve in the sense that we cannot spam every global. If we specc for energy sustain then we lose burst, currently in the talent tree.
Echoing Reprimand kinda breaks our energy though. If you use it, you often dont have to spend as much energy to get the max combo point finishers you like, and so this ability is really strong to bend the rules of Rogue energy and make us capable of more than usual in its timespan.
Need more nerf then that. Often players are dead and the rogue never used deathmark etc yet still top dmg somehow.
I agree shiv and the heal reduction needs to F off for a class with this mobility+cc.
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You MAY be right, but I cannot stress how hard the current situation is to analyse. Assa Rogue gets a ridiculous bump by getting the 4set bonus. I do NOT have it and, while I am definitely strong (and we still need nerfs, especially to the AoE aspect of Shiv) I am nowhere near the damage you describe here. My friend who HAS the 4set bonus does however produce the damage you mention here.
The solution is to nerf/change the 4set bonus, not to ruin baseline core assa so that we become useless UNTIL we get the 4set, because that would be terrible for all people rolling Assa alts.
might be right ,you can just faceroll people without even pressing deathmark.But yet again i think this is happening because of shiv and overtuned bleed damage that u can apply with almost no effort.